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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | Cracking down on "corporate greed" should affect all of us. |
How is the oil companies' below-average profit margin "greed"? A majority of corporations have greater profit margins -- MANY well-known corps get several times Big Oil's PM -- but nobody is whining about that, largely for one very simple reason: The Democrats, from the President to equally biased and uninformed Occutards, have demonized Big Oil's profits out of political gain and simply stupidity, and mindless sycophants just jump on the wagon like so many zombies seeking brains. Of COURSE Big Oil should clean up its act, but Hillary's vow to "seize" Big Oil's profits simply because their profits are too high is pandering, is literally criminal, (accurately) presumes voter stupidity. Yet they glorify Apple, whose PMs are three times Big Oil's.
Puleeeze! Shove the politics where the sun don't shine, solve some real problems (like BP's malfeasance), and EARN our votes with PERFORMANCE rather than BS.
Let's get even more basic: Define greed. The most logical TR host I know of has been issuing his audience of millions that challenge for decades, and has never received a valid answer. This group hasn't even come close when I've issued that challenge. |
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boggsman1
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Greed: when you've been out in the waves for three hours and you have had a perfect session, and you come back into shore ...stand there for a minute, then decide to go back out. Greed. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Talking of pollution and the "representatives" of the 99%...........
"By dawn in Los Angeles, trash, flattened tents and the stench of urine were the Occupy LA legacy. City crews were installing chain link fence and concrete barricades around once-lush lawns that are now patches of dirt strewn with tons of debris, including clothing, tents, bedding shoes, trash and two months of human flotsam. (i.e. faeces)"
"God bless them for their spontaneity. It's independent ... it's young, it's spontaneous, and it's focused. And it's going to be effective." Nancy Pelosi. |
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boggsman1
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Im glad the OWS movement has brought you back to the peanut gallery, Mr. Gybe. Its great to have you. |
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pueno
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| boggsman1 wrote: | | Greed: when you've been out in the waves for three hours and you have had a perfect session, and you come back into shore ...stand there for a minute, then decide to go back out. Greed. |
Greed: When you do all that and then cash your "gummint" disability check, pension check, social security check, and then go out for more fun.
And then whine that others get too much. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Isobars...My point is that many folks complain about profits of large corporations without realizing those profits benefit many ordinary folks. I spent the holiday listening to a pensioned government employee complaining about corporate greed. And yet, his pension is not subject to reducing profits from those corporations as is mine. Even though, his employer is heavily vested in the market. The public pension shortfalls from reduced value in corporate shares are the taxpayers responsibilty. This does not seem fair. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | 1. I spent the holiday listening to a pensioned government employee complaining about corporate greed.
2. And yet, his pension is not subject to reducing profits from those corporations as is mine. Even though, his employer is heavily vested in the market. The public pension shortfalls from reduced value in corporate shares are the taxpayers responsibilty. |
1. I'd bet him $50 he cannot define greed in any meaningful, practical way. The usual answer, "More than they need" isn't even close, for several reasons.
2. I don't understand that. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| State and local pensions invest in the stock market...corporate profits drop...stocks drop...pension plan assets drop...payments to pensioners stays the same...taxpayer makes up the difference. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Coboardhead--usually you get it without too much prompting. But your reasoning is off on this one:
| Quote: | So, Exxon makes a profit...Where does that profit go?
I assume the shareholders, including many state and local pensions and small investors, including myself, share in these profits. Some of us even pay taxes on our dividends. Some of us don't have the protection of government pensions. Chevron takes a hit. Who pays? |
All corporations do things that are beneficial for the overall economy, and their sharedholders. But they also consume government resources, and if they don't pay for those resources, or pay at a different rate than their competitors, it warps the economy. Conservatives and libertarians frequently complain that taxing corporations simply results in the public paying those taxes through higher prices. Not always so, products are priced according to supply and demand as well as the cost of production. Sometimes costs can't be passed along so profits are reduced. But the real issue is getting the costs of the product to be fairly reflected in the price. Amazon pays far less in taxes, by taking a very aggressive and litigious posture to state sales tax, than many of their competitors. That gives them, I believe, an unfair competitive advantage. The same can be said about carbon fuels like petroleum, which compete with hydropower, solar, coal, and natural gas. If a pattern of subsidies is applied to one of those sources it warps the competition that conservatives pretend to love.
In the case of the petroleum industry, sources come from the Middle East, where taxpayers assure security without those costs being reflected in the product. For domestic sources, there are advantageous deals on leases and on depreciation, and the pollution and climate change costs are shifted to others. Finally, foreign based oil comes in ships, in navigational channels constructed by public ports with tax money. When the second-richest corporation in the world pays no taxes on their profit, they are not covering the costs that the public is paying to help them get their product to market.
Asking a corporation to pay their fair share is not the same as being anti-corporation. I see myself as anti-unfair behavior. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Mac
I have no problem with corporations paying more taxes if we need to do this for our economic security. I have no problem with reducing government subsidies for oil companies, or even taxing carbon.
But, my point is that when we make these choices, we are not, necessarily, just taxing the elite or reducing "corporate profits". The effects will be felt by many others too. I feel this pain needs to be spread out to all that have benefited from those profits, including public pension holders.
When BP has to forego it's dividends to pay for the spill. My retirement savings take a hit. My relative's teacher pension does not, even though his employer's plan is just as heavily vested in BP stocks. The taxpayer covers the shortfall.
This is why I believe the attitude that the large banks should have been allowed to fail is not as simple as it sounds. These companies are integrally tied into the whole economy and the effects of failure are far reaching.
I am prepared to back up my position that the way the extraction energy industry does business needs to be reformed with a hit to my portfolio. I wonder how many on government pensions would?
Last edited by coboardhead on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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