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Islam and Al Queda
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5446

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT, personally I can understand the tough dilemma that the UK and other European countries face trying to integrate a culture where very different religion values and mores come into play in day to day life.

Here in the US we are beginning to see some impacts too. Just a few days ago in the Seattle area there was a situation where Muslim bus drivers for Hertz were claiming to have been discriminated against because they were not being allowed to pray 5 times a day on company time. Although Hertz wasn't denying them the right to pray, they were just requiring them to clock out and to do it on their own time. Similarly, there was another recent situation where a Muslim woman hired in the food industry, that when faced with working a shift handling pork, refused to do the work based on her religious beliefs. Prior to being hired, she understood that the facility handled pork, and that she may be required to do such work as a condition of the job. In the end, she expected to be given special consideration because of her faith.

As I see it, religious beliefs are fine as long as they do not intrude into their responsibilities working for others, or their relations other citizens in society. Religion can have a place in the modern world, but all to often today religious folks don't understand that, and that applies to Christians, Muslims, or any other religious sect. They keep pushing the envelope expecting to establish their beliefs as the law of the land. The repeated attempts by Christians today to integrate their belief of intelligent creation into the curriculum of science classes is a perfect example. As stupid and inappropriate as that is, there's an expectation that it should be done. One only has to look at constant barrage that Christian fanatics direct at Roe vs Wade and a woman's right to choose to see another perfect example.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1247

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely Swchandler! I'm afraid it IS necessary to draw a line in the sand. The woman handling pork situation is one I also quoted, and we've just had a rampage and running battle with the police by another religious group because their canteen dared to handle pork!

The problems will multiply in your country too, just as they have here. As you say, give in once, and the demands will simply increase. It makes me angry. I'm afraid. Pushing the envelope describes the process exactly!
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1247

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More news. Our Muslim population has now reached 2.5 miilion and is rapidly growing with over half now under the age of 25. Mosques and Madrasses are not regulated in any way, and are rapidly multiplying in number.

Concern has been growing and, under the freedom of information act, authorities are now trying to ascertain just what goes on within them? The answer is not a pretty one.

Young Muslim children, apart from having to spend over 10 hours a week of indoctrination in Islamic law and the reciting of the Koran in Arabic, are, in many instances being beaten (for non compliance) and sexually abused. Their parents, subject to community pressure, do not report this.

Ghayasudim Siddigui, founder of the Muslim think tank is shocked at these revelations, and has stated that 'We are basically destroying the lives of young people.'

Mohhamad Shahid Raza, chairman of the Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board said he would investigate, stating that 'Those who run theMosques must realise that we live in a civilised society, and this is not acceptable at any cost.'

Nazil Afzal, chief Crown Prosecutor for N.W. England said he believed the figures coming to light represented a significant underestimate.

Allowing Muslim communities to police their own practises is against the rule of law in my opinion, and is NOT helping integration into our Western society. But then, we want that, but a great many of them do not!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5446

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Allowing Muslim communities to police their own practises is against the rule of law in my opinion, and is NOT helping integration into our Western society. But then, we want that, but a great many of them do not!"


GT agree wholly with your first sentence. What I see as key is the fact that Muslim mosques do not have sovereign rights like foreign embassies do. They must obey the laws of the UK, and if they are found to be breaking any laws, they are culpable and must pay the price if found guilty in a court of law. They can't have their own little world to do whatever they want. They may not like it, but to live in western society they must conform in fundamental ways just like other citizens. If they have a problem with that, they can always return to the country of their origin.

As an aside, there was something I wanted to say in my earlier post, but elected against it. However, now it might be a better time. I think that the UK and other European nations should consider letting Hispanics from Mexico and Central America immigrate. Believe me, these hard working folks could be just what you need. They're Christians, and culturally they aren't from another planet. They do tend to stick together in some respects, but they like to fit in. As an added plus, I'm sure that folks would love their cuisine. Great food.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1247

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trouble is Swchandler, it's now a numbers game. Western Europe, and our country in particular, is facing large scale immigration from overcrowded Asian and African countries, along with Eastern Europeans freed from communist repression. Our population increase is way beyond the sensible.

In situations where chaos can result (in one London school alone, 47 different languages are spoken, and next to none can even speak English) the rule of law over all, equally, is essential. It is not acceptable to allow religious beliefs to override the need to obey and comply.

Thankfully, action is being taken at last, to enforce our laws.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 3609

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Mexicans so much I married one, but we cannot accept more desperately poor people into our country.

I heard an interesting story about Alabama's unemployment #s. After the anti immigration bill went into effect farmers were left with thousands of job openings. Guess what happened? Thousands of legal Americans are lining up to take those jobs. Extremely hard work yes, but better than welfare to most.

We cannot continue to import labor just because it is cheap. We need to make it easier for employers to hire Americans.
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2299
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
..We need to make it easier for employers to hire Americans.


Or much less cost effective to hire foreigners.

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5446

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgetting your focus on population growth, I didn't consider overpopulation concerns in my last response. It was more tailored to the issues of labor needs and a more comfortable cultural fit. Nevertheless, with your comments and concerns, I'm learning a bit more about the Western European/immigrant Muslim issues today. It's good to get a local's perspective.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 3609

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jpbassking wrote:
stevenbard wrote:
..We need to make it easier for employers to hire Americans.


Or much less cost effective to hire foreigners.


That would be tarrifs or fines. In essense they are the same thing. American made goods will be more expensive. American middle class is paying the price either way. No matter who runs the govt, both sides are afraid to dismantle the trade structure or regulation.

BTW: Americans have lost $12trillion in home equity and stock value over the last 3 years. There are less millionaires every day.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5446

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know Bard, I don't buy the adverse regulation thing about business in the US today. Moreover, you haven't really been specific, and that doesn't cut in my view.

Preparing for a future world shouldn't rely on past history that has proven to be inappropriate and not in concert with the leading edge of where things need to go. I think that you confuse making money and creating jobs using a arguably failed model. You have to ask why corporate America decided to look elsewhere. Certainly it was about making more money by reducing labor costs and using the lack of regulations environment that foreign companies often operate in. Does that make it right?

It's not about going back and playing on outmoded paradigms for simple profit. I hope you know that relying on a service related systems isn't going to keep America on the forefront. Business needs to navigate through improved regulations and more creative ways of doing things. Innovation results from new ideas and ways to win.

As a credentialed MBA, you've got to get the drift for the future. But, maybe you don't. Drifting hard on Republican nonsense doesn't mean jack.
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