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Islam and Al Queda
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14612

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As do all rational and informed media, leaders, and citizens of most nations. The primary deniers are people who think with their hearts rather than their minds and who are (mis)educated by like-(non)thinking mentors, teachers, and associates.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
The primary deniers are people who think with their hearts rather than their minds and who are (mis)educated by like-(non)thinking mentors, teachers, and associates.

Oh, you mean like the global warming and evolution deniers?
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never heard the term Londistan, and I travel to European cities regularly.

Although I believe that this might be your subjective impression, I do think the suggestion of muslim conspiracy and conquest being the true goal of current immigration is vastly exaggerated.

Yet, I do fully agree - and I believe I've made that point in my post - that there is a danger of disenfranchised young immigrants being recruited for terrorist goals. That is no doubt what you are seeing in the news and referring to. How do we counteract that - by pushing harder, taking away funding for language courses, education, child care in well-integrated environments.

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for a considered reply.

A point I was making is that many of the growing band of young radicals are not disenfranchised immigrants. Their parents were immigrants, but they have been born and brought up in this country, been through the state education system, studied at university, mixed freely, and have not been discriminated against at all. (Rather the opposite, in fact. The Arch Bishop of Canterbury has finally complained that, the authorities seem to be going out of their way to expunge any kind of reference to our Christian heritage, in case it gives offense to those of other faiths.)

If these intelligent people are radicalised, it's not through being easily led, but because they are not prepared to accept our fought for, and non negotiable, Western freedoms. I fail to see how it is possible for them to be integrated into our society. And I assure you, it is not just I who feel that way!
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="GURGLETROUSERS"]Thank you for a considered reply.

A point I was making is that many of the growing band of young radicals are not disenfranchised immigrants. Their parents were immigrants, but they have been born and brought up in this country, been through the state education system, studied at university, mixed freely, and have not been discriminated against at all. (Rather the opposite, in fact. The Arch Bishop of Canterbury has finally complained that, the authorities seem to be going out of their way to expunge any kind of reference to our Christian heritage, in case it gives offense to those of other faiths.)

If these intelligent people are radicalised, it's not through being easily led, but because they are not prepared to accept our fought for, and non negotiable, Western freedoms. I fail to see how it is possible for them to be integrated into our society. And I assure you, it is not just I who feel that way![/quote]

This is not a matter of immigration then, we've got to realize. The issue is with what you - and I for the most part, although with a critical eye - perceive as the dominant culture in the tradition of western enlightenment; basically, the world we live in. It might be difficult for those who've fought hard for this culture, to understand how entire generations can reject those values that we hold self-evident.

I believe one of the positive attributes of our culture - one that undoubtedly contributes to its strength - is that it goes through periods of renewal, brought upon sometimes by crises between generations, and sometimes when exposed to a competition of ideas and ideals from the outside.

If our western culture fails to be sufficiently persuasive to those who have been brought up with its benefits, yet in the nexus between east and west, perhaps it is time to shed some garbage and renew what is at its core.

Ultimately, the core ideal of self-determination that lies at the root of western culture, has been buried under layer upon layer of conformism, consumerism (the resulting credit card debt), and abdication of power to corporate and government institutions. The frustration that results from this is immense and takes on many forms - such as young people joining neo-fascist gangs, following radical imams, etc.

FWIW: I see the Occupy Wall street as an attempt at peeling back these layers; a necessary call for renewal that will ultimately address issues all over the world, including Londonistan.

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Last edited by feuser on Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2036

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feuser

Heartfelt and well written post...But, we live in a world where extremists can exercise their protests with extremely deadly methods.

Our corrupt political and financial systems are not going to change overnight. The peaceful protests may slowly facilitate change. However, those that use violence will do nothing but hurt their cause.

Young Muslims changing Muslim nations is an entirely different thing than young Muslims changing Western nations. I am not referring to the US...I don't believe we have a real issue here... I am responding to GT's concerns about his country.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you gentlemen. There is much to think about, but it's heartening to know that others, like yourselves, can see beyond the excesses, and care about the future of our society.

Shopping yesterday, and watching mothers with happy carefree young children scampering all over the place, brought home just how much our way of life and freedoms really do mean to us. I hope, for their sake, that remains so. (Excuse me while I wipe a tear from my eye, and bow out. Wink )
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5570

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--I am disappointed in you. You are attributing aberrant behavior by any Muslim to religion without any knowledge or consideration of what other causes might have been involved. Such aberrant behavior occurs around the world, and often uses religious differences as a rationalization for some profoundly unhinged kind of behavior. Just one example:
Quote:
Slaying suspects planned 'to kill more Jews'

By Mike Carter
Seattle Times staff reporter

An Oregon white supremacist and his girlfriend linked to four slayings in three states, including two killings in Everett, were driving to Sacramento, Calif., to "kill more Jews" when they were arrested by police, according to charging documents.

The documents filed in Snohomish County allege that David Joseph "Joey" Pedersen, 31, and his girlfriend, Holly Ann Grigsby, 24, had killed Pedersen's father and stepmother in Everett, then drove in the dead man's car to Oregon, where Grigsby said they shot and killed 19-year-old Cody Myers and stole his car.

Grigsby told police they shot Myers "because his last name made them think he was Jewish," according to the charging documents. Prosecutors said Grigsby claimed that she and Pedersen then planned to drive to Sacramento to "kill more Jews."

The couple are also suspected in the slaying of 53-year-old Reginald Alan Clark, an African-American man who was found shot to death Friday in the back seat of his pickup in Eureka, Calif.


I would not attribute their behavior to their being Christian, to any perceived bad behavior by other ethnic groups, or their being white. They're just bat shit crazy and they listened to and believed some sick propaganda about white supremacy.

There are certainly wars between sects in Muslim, and there have been religious wars throughout the history of modernization and the strains that it pu\ts on culture. There is an active debate as to whether such behavior is due to ignorance, or the breakdown of cultural support in modernization. But where most of the Muslim immigrants throughout the world are peaceful and integrated into their new cultures, it is simply wrong (and bad statistics) to attribute bad behavior to their religion.

If you want an interesting take on the strains of modernity on the Muslim world that predicted a cultural clash in 1996, I suggest you read Samuel P. Huntington on "The Clash of Civilizations." Substantially more profound that most of the postings on this forum.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I witnessed at first hand Mac, the clash of cultures (in Britain) through the family of my Muslim friend, as his two children, both born and educated here, grew up.
His wife, (strict muslim), from Pakistan before marriage had battles with their teenage daughter who naturally wanted to join in all the fun! Her father was a little more liberal (settled here as a student in the early 60's) but she would not allow it. Fortunately, both have turned out well, and the daughter is currently engaged to one not of the Muslim faith. Her father would not allow the mother to forbid such a union.

I do not agree that young Muslim radicals are 'bat shit crazy'. That is a dangerous misconception. They have a clear conception of what they are trying to achieve The videos of those who successfully carry out their suicide missions confirm that, though I doubt they are stupid enough to believe in forty virgins, (or whatever the current rate may be), any more than Chritians will be sitting on a cloud playing a harp!

One of our Middle East envoys (retired) once stated that to enter that region was to enter a lunatic asylum. BUT, he continued, there is method in their madness and we underestimate them at our peril.

You and I both mean well Mac, and I'm sorry if you take a dim view of my reasoning, but I don't believe there to be equivalence between 'our' nut jobs, and theirs. It is a characteristic of a liberal mind (I'm NOT trying to insult, just showing where I am coming from) that it will seek such. I do not wish to see our country become an Islamic state. That is their objective. It is not mine! Don't forget, Europe is on the front line in this clash. We didn't succumb to Communism, and we are not about to sacrifice ourselves to any other ism.

If this makes me a bigot in others eyes, I apologise, but I too have convictions.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2409

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can trace just about everything that sucks in this world back to religion.... of ALL stripes.
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