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Flood Control, the Mississippi River, and Government
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2032

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stevenbard wrote

Quote:
Mac, Building your home or business in a flood plane is like eating an In & Out burger. Your own choice. Why should the government have anything to do with the decision other than requiring the seller to disclose the facts prior to close of escrow or consumption. (lenders won't loan on those properties in the govt gets out of the insurance and banking industries)


What about earthquakes in California, Tornados in Missouri, Hurricanes in Florida, Volcanos in Oregon, Fires in Colorado?

I certainly believe in personal responsibility; but at some point, we need to develop some of these areas to provide food and infrastructure for a growing national and international population. People will be at risk from natural disasters.

It is the responsibility of our government to regulate construction in areas of significant danger to reduce potential for loss of life and property and to reduce the costs to society when natural disaster occurs.

It is also the responsibility of government to mitigate these potential disasters thru (for example) flood control efforts to provide a means to adequately promote and facilitate commerce and agriculture.

My rub is when these mitigation projects are driven by politics and not sound science and engineering. My rub is when regulations are relaxed in the interest of "private property rights" that put folks at risks that they are not equipped to evaluate.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4309

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can the government do anything without thinking about politics. If banks were independent, they'd only lend to borrowers who met strict earthquake and flood standards.

In the flood planes, and earthquake zones homes would sell for less money. Interesting that without government, maybe families wouldn't need 2 earners to afford their homes. Who knows?

I don't trust government to be honest in promoting the welfare of the people. It's just all too complicated. Clearly proven by a booming stock and commodities market, but no job creation at home. Why? Why can't we compete with the Chinese? You can't even open a donut shop without the epa breathing down your neck.

A friend of mine opened a batting cage. It cost him almost a million dollars to get through the permits and engineering. Fire regulations that were outrageous. He had to buy netting that was 50 times as expensive because it had to be fire proof. This is 3 inch netting, hardly something that would be dangerous. Fire sprinklers in an open area. Fireproof artificial turf. Handicap ramps for the baseball players? Are you kidding me? He's gonna lose his ass. No wonder investors are moving their money off shore.

Microsoft just bought skype. Why? If they repatriated the cash to the U.S. they pay taxes on it. So they buy a company instead of putting the money into U.S. jobs and pay no taxes. Thanks congress.....
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2032

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two friends of mine own historic buildings side by side. Fire started in one spread to the other. I am working to save what's left. Now, codes require separation walls to protect adjacent property. Nannyism? Where do you draw the line?

Chile enforced earthquake codes, Haiti did not. Should a safe structure be only for those wealthiest to afford it. How about a developer building and renting unsafe structures to poor folks? Nannyism to tell him he can't build a building that will fold like a stack of cards when a minor earthquake hits?

Look at what happened when we stopped watching the banks. $12 trillion down the drain. Nannyism to prevent this from happening again?

I agree that we have crossed the line on some regulations; especially concerning building of recreational facilities and asbestos cleanup. But, this is a matter of writing better laws; not re-defining government's roles and responsibility in defining safe and healthy housing.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2407

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Handicap ramps for the baseball players? Are you kidding me?

_________________
/w\
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2032

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Windoggie

Please, forward that to Paul Ryan. He needs to know about this outrageous and blatant abuse of government funds! Rolling Eyes
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5467

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bard said:
Quote:
You can't even open a donut shop without the epa breathing down your neck.

A friend of mine opened a batting cage. It cost him almost a million dollars to get through the permits and engineering. Fire regulations that were outrageous. He had to buy netting that was 50 times as expensive because it had to be fire proof. This is 3 inch netting, hardly something that would be dangerous. Fire sprinklers in an open area. Fireproof artificial turf. Handicap ramps for the baseball players? Are you kidding me? He's gonna lose his ass. No wonder investors are moving their money off shore.


Now bard, you should know that the EPA has nothing to do with donut shops or batting cages. If you don't, you should read a little more widely. Having lived in southern California in the 1960's, I fully support what they've done on air quality and water quality. We have three times as many people and 1/10 the air pollution. That didn't happened through the good graces of big oil or big autos.

The primary source of your irritation, and it is real, is local zoning. But remember, that's what protects you from having a factory move in next door, or a big office building, or a porn shop.

On flood control, it has been a traditional role of government for many many decades. I agree that without the assurances on flood control land would be cheaper and people might take risks more carefully--or avoid them. But it is a little too complicated to just say no more--like I said, the Corps of Engineers and local governments have 3500 miles of levees along the Mississippi...
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4309

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the epa does have something to do with donuts. The boiling oil is regulated by the epa.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4309

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're good windoggie, I should hide my head in shame, but because of the regs, hundreds of kids may do without. It really is pathetic, but anyone who is an honorable man would help a disabled vet up the steps to hit some balls. Gladly.

Have we lost all perspective? Is there no honor left? Is there no room in regulation for honor?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5467

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard--on the off chance that you are actually right, give a source that EPA regulates cooking oil. Nothing shows up in a web search, although the use of
Quote:
used
oil as a fuel can be regulated under certain circumstances. There are certainly a bunch of libertarian sites out there complaining about EPA regulating things, I'm curious as to how you got this notion. Real or exaggeration or pants on fire?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14461

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
It is the responsibility of our government to regulate construction in areas of significant danger to reduce potential for loss of life and property and to reduce the costs to society when natural disaster occurs.


One simple FREE solution exists for both problems: the government bows out of both issues. No regulation, no fiscal responsibility. Maybe at most notify the public of the risks, then stand back. That wouldn't work as a blanket policy nation-wide, but it should be a serious option in every potential disaster zone. The public sure as hell doesn't owe a new home to the people whose mansions are washed away by east coast storms, and news stories are still chronicling the abusive extent of the benefits given to many of the "victims" of Katrina who knew damned well they lived below sea level in a hurricane zone. The constitution prohibits the federal government from such endeavors anyway (the "general welfare" clause means EVERY citizen, not just a subset, must benefit.)
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