Wind on the Nile

[GURGLETROUSERS]

There is a worrying rise in anti-semitism in many parts of Europe. Is history repeating itself?

In trying to understand why they are so belligerent and unwilling to make any concessions to those they perceive as enemies ... stated aim to wipe Israel off the face of the earth .... I try to put myself in their place, and think back to 'The Final Solution', when 6,000,000 of them were exterminated in Nazi concentration camps.

As long as living memories of those days exist, it's hard to see any concession on their part to those who are dedicated to their destruction.

[mrgybe]

Also try to put yourself in their place and imagine thousands of rockets being fired into your back yard, killing your family and friends, year after year..........and then being told to negotiate with the perpetrators in good faith. The Arabs surrounding Israel don't want to negotiate concessions from Israel, they want Israel gone. A somewhat suspicious and defensive reaction from Israel is entirely understandable...........it is not petulant arrogance from spoiled teenagers.

[isobars]

Speaking of arrogance ... I do not recall any president, ever, being so arrogant as to tell another country in public that it should give up its land. WhoTF is Barack Obama to tell Israel to simply abandon much of its land, including half of a major city, to ANYONE, let alone a bunch of thugs who have vowed to eliminate Israel and have lobbed thousands of rockets into its people? That anyone here would defend or suggest that Obama is right or Israel overly defensive in this is incomprehensible even from this lot. Obama is fortunate that Netanyahu was too much of a statesman to speak his mind candidly. "That's not going to happen", in this case, is Yiddish for "Are you insane, you $^&%!%^* arrogant fool?"

One more time:
If the Palestinians/Hamas gave up their arms, what would happen? Peace.
If Israel gave up its arms, what would happen? Genocide ... AGAIN.
What does that tell us about both sides?

[mac]

One of the saddest days of my life was spent in Washington D. C. walking first to the Vietnam memorial, then to the Lincoln Memorial, then to the Korean War memorial, and then finally to the holocaust museum. As my wife and I walked out of the latter, we both grieved that Israel cannot see how close to Nazi totalitarianism they have come in their devotion to "never again."

May I remind you all that disagreement with Israel on matters of policy does not amount to support for Israel's enemies, real or exagerated for political purposes, or anti-Semitism. The question instead is must America support Israel in all respects, including substantially in financing, no matter how badly their behavior? It is, in essence, the classic problem in international politics. How far can we/should we go to support democracy in China and Yemen when the benefits of success or failure are not immediately clearly in the United States behavior.

I believe that Israel's actions in seizing property without compensation, denying fundamental civil rights to Palistineans, and escalation of violence on all occasions have made Israel less, not more secure. It has strengthened the hands of the more extreme--in both Palistine and Israel, and made peaceful communication and issue resolution more difficult if not impossible. Those who believe that people cannot be reasoned with, but must be controlled, the classical neo-con instinct, applaud Israel's militarism without any serious look at the results. How far do they drag the United States along with them? Into bombing Iran over development of nuclear weapons? Israel seems to have asked for help in this endeavor, and Cheney spent the latter part of his term trying to lobby Bush to attack Iran. When militarism as a response has hardened lines, is it not insane to keep trying the same things and expecting better results?

[mac]

By the way, I heard mrgybe's argument on talk radio about an hour before he posted it here. Virtually the same in almost all respects. Spare me stories about original thinking. The Republican right, fueled by John Birch and oil money, has attack sites that are ready to attack Obama at a moments notice, and willing hard righters to pass the messages on.

[mrgybe]

It is 80 degrees and sunny here...........haven't listened to the radio all day (I rarely do anyway)......been outside most of the day. Those who couch every issue in terms of left or right are truly sad.

[swchandler]

mac, I can say, based on your 20:21 post, that you and I think very similarly about the quagmire between Israelis and Palestinians. It's hardly a simple problem, and my earlier comments to make a point could have been chosen better, but I feel that Israelis take the support we've given them for so many years a bit too lightly, particularly since their conduct is hardly impeccable, nor always appropriate. It has to be remembered that their actions reflect back greatly on us as a nation.

To keep dragging out the same paradigms to justify and condone Israel's actions is getting really old and tired. While I can recognize the important of Israeli security in negotiations with the Palestinians, to include their relations with neighboring states, I'm not getting the message that they're trying too hard to resolve their differences with the Palestinians. The Palestinians do have valid interests in all this, and it's not necessarily right to continually use their vocal and sometime violent opposition to Israeli policy and actions as a club against them.

I think that an important point that hasn't been raised is the fact that the Jews in WW2 didn't really resist the Nazis. We all know that the Israelis are determined not to repeat history, and as a result, they're very adamant about militarily protecting their nation. However, I find it surprising that the Israelis don't seem to understand the Palestinians are essentially fighting for their freedom too in their own homeland. That's a pertinent point, regardless of whether the Israelis like the results they're experiencing.

[GURGLETROUSERS]

Quote: 'Those who believe that people cannot be reasoned with, but must be controlled'

Neville Chamberlain thought Adolf Hitler and the Nazis could be reasoned with at Munich in 1938. He signed the Munich ' Peace in our time' agreement. Result, World War Two, and over 20 million dead!

Appeasement did not work!

Quote: 'is the fact that the Jews in WW2 didn't really resist the Nazis.'

Of course not, they couldn't! They were being attacked, their property smashed up , and anyone resisting was rounded up and never seen again. The intellectuals laid low and pretended that if they gave no cause for complaint they would be left alone. They ended in the concentration camps just the same.

Appeasement did not work!

Hitler had openly declared his intentions in Mein Kampf, but nobody took him seriously. After all, it was the twentieth century, and such things couldn't really happen, could they?

Appeasement did not work!

Irans president has clearly and often stated that he wishes to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. But of course, he can't really mean that can he? After all, this is the twenty first century, and even if he is developing nuclear weapons, such things can't really happen, can they?

Appeasement will not etc etc!

[swchandler]

The Iranians aside, because their government is so totally often off the map, your repetitive comments highlighting appeasement make a point I felt that I was trying to make.

Let's turn the tables a bit. WW2 is long over, but there's no ignoring the tragedies that happened. Yet, we must always remember that people will often fight for their freedom, even if the odds are against them, like the Palestinians today. The results can be ugly, just look at what's happened in Northern Ireland, or in some other locale in recent history.

Israel needs to get serious, and I question whether Netanyahu has the capability or the balls to do that. Why keep "appeasing" leadership in Israel who refuse to deal with a the Palestinian issue within Israel's borders, to include their captured lands since 1967?

[GURGLETROUSERS]

Yes, I'm sorry it sounded the way it did Swchandler. I was not trying to be personal. It's after 3 in the morning here and I've not been able to get to sleep thinking about it.

I was only 7 years old at the end of the war but the sheer inhuman horror of what took place in the concentration camps had a profound effect on a young impressionable mind. I watched the newsreels of the atrocities in the cinema with my mother, and her intense anger and rage at what we saw affected me. An abiding memory is of a Nazi film clip at the gates of Austwich, showing the strutting German guards marshalling the jewish arrivals in and directing them to the gas chambers, as three clearly terrified young Jewish women violinists were forced to play grandiose bits of Wagner! I can still picture the tears streaming down my mothers face

I don't have an answer, but I do believe in evil. Evil cannot be reasoned with!

Not much help, I know, but I can't help sympathising with the Jews.