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What should we do about guns?
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3334

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Belize the murder rate from 1970 to 1980 averages 2 stabbings and one poisoning a year. Now we have guns. This year the murder rate was still two stabbings-and 128 gun murders, mostly young people as young as 8 years old. They don't lay down of the sidewalk as fast as adult targets.
How about the name of that imaginary historian?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14050

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to burst your poison bubble, KC, but my mass shooting data is based on research, as usual, rather than bluster. Quoting from the abstract of a 1999 study by Lott and Landes cited in http://tinyurl.com/4gtxrr9 :
"the only policy factor to influence multiple victim public shootings is the passage of concealed handgun laws".

You're referring, by the seat of your pants, to open, lowlife, gang/tribal-banging, urban/jungle, endless crime between heavily armed mutually aggressive feral humans and/or simply high rates of crime. I'm specifically addressing mass shootings ... one lunatic pulls out a gun and starts targeting ordinary citizens just to see how many he can kill. Think Texas Tower, Columbine, Tucson, "going postal", and whatever similar mass shootings go on in Europe and other civilized societies where the ordinary citizen cannot carry weapons to Walmarts. How's that concept going to work in a heavily armed third world society where the targets shoot back and take care of business, or in a modern society where the "rational" -- as in your usual well-planned mass shooting -- gunman knows his victims can shoot back? Guess how often mass shooters like Loughner open fire at gun shows, firing ranges, or in LA barrios.

As for crime rates correlating very strongly but negatively with concealed carry communities ... as I've said many times, my intent is not to prove my claims to You People; it's to make you aware of proven facts so you can prove them to yourselves. It's above my pay grade to do your homework for you, and many of You People refuse to accept any source I pick because Keith Olbermann hasn't said it. If you want to go through life no smarter or better informed than he, go right ahead. Sadly, you're still allowed to vote despite doing no homework. If any of you wish to base your decisions, vote, or action initiatives such as coboardhead's home state gun control efforts on cold, hard facts, the date is online for the clicking.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5143

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is rich. Isobars caught in a wild exaggeration again. His reference is to an article by an optometrist, Michael S. Brown, who cites Lott and Landes 1999. Only the abstract is available without purchase, and it says this:
Quote:
Few events obtain the same instant worldwide news coverage as multiple victim public shootings. These crimes allow us to study the alternative methods used to kill a large number of people (e.g., shootings versus bombings), marginal deterrence and the severity of the crime, substitutability of penalties, private versus public methods of deterrence and incapacitation, and whether attacks produce copycats. Yet, economists have not studied this phenomenon. Our results are surprising and dramatic. While arrest or conviction rates and the death penalty reduce normal murder rates, our results find that the only policy factor to influence multiple victim public shootings is the passage of concealed handgun laws. We explain why public shootings are more sensitive than other violent crimes to concealed handguns, why the laws reduce both the number of shootings as well as their severity, and why other penalties like executions have differential deterrent effects depending upon the type of murder.


On a previous post, I cited Lott and Mustard, and its use in the Cato Institute study. There does in fact appear to be a correlation. But remember Iso's claim:

Quote:
all the mass shootings on the planet by loonies/criminals in modern history, the only one to take place in a location where citizens are allowed to carry guns was in Tucson last week. Then he rattled off a long list of huge percentages by which crime drops (up to 100% reduction) when gun controls on the citizenry are loosened and by which crime soars (over 300% increases in some cases) when gun controls on the citizenry are tightened. Plainly and simply, the crooks know they're home free when their victims and bystanders can not legally carry guns.


The underlying data does not, in fact, show a 100% reduction or a 300% reduction. Indeed, anyone who had completed a post graduate degree, which requires some level of understanding of statistics, would know the difficulties of teasing apart factors that are co-correlated. As noted by everyone in criminology, (and those who predicted strife with the Muslim world well before 9/11), the age of the population is the strongest factor in crime rates.

Good "work" Iso. I can't imagine you passing probation on any engineering job that required an open mind and actual use of sources.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3334

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points.
Regardless of how wrong Iso is he is always right in his tiny world. Why does he still give us references which say something different that his post? At first I thought he never reads but I think by now he must have read at least one and simply can not understand what he reads. I have a program for adults of otherwise normal intelligence who have poor comprehension.
The main reason he censors most people is because they have checked one of his references found it disagrees with iso and iso gets snotty about it. They respond in kind which is against iso rules so he censors them to keep his tiny space pure of educated talk.
Turn up the radio iso and plug up your ears while intelligent well informed posters continue to speak over your head.
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