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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2034

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe said

Quote:
I used only a couple of sentences from your post in the interests of brevity. Please tell me how that editing mischaracterized the full version of the post.


The thrust of my argument was that religious organizations use language that can incite the same way as politicians (the subject of this thread). This hymn has become a "battle cry" of sorts at political gatherings.

You diminished the argument to my being afraid of choir boys instead of discussing whether you thought this was true or not. I find that to be selective editing.

I will admit that my first response was flippant to Stevenbard's sarcastic post. For that I apologize.

Instead of stating your position, I should have flat out asked "Is it ok to use inflamatory religious rhetoric as a tool to rile up one's POLITICAL base?


Last edited by coboardhead on Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4312

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker wrote:
Well said Bard. So how?
Bush wasn't the answer. The GOP grew the gov. as fast as they could. Obama hasn't reduced it.The GOP is hoping we are dumb enough to believe their program is somehow different now that they are largely out of power.
Completely eliminating Gov. rules and social engineering gets you a country like Sudan. Iso and I like countries with social programs (disability, vet benefits, etc) like the US or Canada, England, France New Zealand a lot better.
Large scale programs intended to help us like health reform are not well run on such a massive level. We have free or cheap health care here on the island where I live. It is supplied as foreign aid from Cuba, but that is much easier to do for 1500 people.
Iso solutions are parroting the lobbyists and there are many others who are buried under that propaganda as well. This group is not the only ones who will never be able to think for themselves without the radio issuing instructions.
Countries where the free market totally rules are nightmares like Somalia.
Here is the central question asked by Real Politics.
Cut the rhetoric.
What do we do?


Grow up and act like our forefathers who did not over consume. Live on budgets more like Kennedy and less like Bush or Obama. Elect a guy like JFK, Eisenhower or Reagan. Eject congress every 2 years until we find leaders, not salesmen.

The best way to accomplish the above is to cut all aspects of government spending. (close the dept. of education, and energy, who have failed miserably)
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3700
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
boggsman1 wrote:
religion is a net negative. Wars, opinions on the world force fed to you, and a crutch, if you ask me. Maher had it right, its a man made mistake. Going to church, enjoying time praying, fine, but I prefer to do it outside the Golden Gate Bridge in 15 foot rolling swell. People do bad things and then say religion saved them...atheletes hit homers then point to the Heavens"thank you God for making me an awesome baseball player". Im just not buying it, I guess Im on the side of Mr. G.'s countryman Chris Hitchens on this one.


Christopher Hitchens is not a countryman of mine. As for the rest of your post..........I've educated you on many things; the positives of religion would simply take too long. You'll have to be content with worshiping your heroes, Soros, Maher and the S&P.

I know there are many positives, Im sure you could state that quite eloquently. Im saying that if you net the positives against the negatives...mainly never ending wars around the globe where millions die, in the name of defending religion...you might have a net negative. I dont like it in the US, where a guy the GWBush gets drunk his whole life, then BAM! he's born again...It's kind of like a God run rehab, rather than exploring why he liked to drink so much, he plasters religion all over it.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3700
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mrgybe"]
boggsman1 wrote:
religion is a net negative. Wars, opinions on the world force fed to you, and a crutch, if you ask me. Maher had it right, its a man made mistake. Going to church, enjoying time praying, fine, but I prefer to do it outside the Golden Gate Bridge in 15 foot rolling swell. People do bad things and then say religion saved them...atheletes hit homers then point to the Heavens"thank you God for making me an awesome baseball player". Im just not buying it, I guess Im on the side of Mr. G.'s countryman Chris Hitchens on this one.


Christopher Hitchens is not a countryman of mine. As for the rest of your post..........I've educated you on many things; the positives of religion would simply take too long. You'll have to be content with worshiping your heroes, Soros, Maher and the S&P.[/quote
I know there are many positives , Im sure you could state it quite eloquently. Im saying that the net is a negative, after you tally the tolls of never ending global wars in the name of defending religion. I do worshiip Soros, a man who escaped religious persecution to make billions.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5472

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe--you eargerly put words in others mouths and subscribe to cheap right wing anti-semitism. This is what you put in keycocker's mouth:
Quote:
You'll have to be content with worshiping your heroes, Soros, Maher and the S&P
This just after this comment:
Quote:
I hope you are not joining the ranks of the name callers and finger pointers.........I briefly went down that path........you will likely regret it as I did.


Fore the anti-semitic take on Soros slurs, see:
http://www.sharethisurlaboutglennbeck.com/2010/12/becks-anti-semitism-addressed-by.html

For a take from Canada, see: http://thecommons-ccd.com/2010/09/im-no-fan-of-george-soros-politics-but-thats-no-reason-to-call-him-a-nazi/

Soros in fact escaped from Naziism. The slurs from the right will not stop, swift boating worked against John Kerry, and the right will stop at nothing to enrich the already rich and the corporations.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14476

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
The best way to accomplish the above is to cut all aspects of government spending. (close the dept. of education, and energy, who have failed miserably)


Stop giving welfare and social services to illegal aliens. That alone costs as much as or more than twice the combined budgets of the Depts of Energy and Education, and would motivate the illegals to go back across the line, GET in line, and become legal immigrants.

Don't believe it? Google it.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5472

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another wild lie from Mike Fick. Debunked on http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/ along with the e-mail chain that started the lie, . Here's their take, in pertinent part:

Quote:
The e-mail lists 14 claims about illegal immigrants, all of which were included in a longer list penned by anti-immigration activist Frosty Wooldridge and published on the conservative Web site NewswithViews.com on Jan. 22, 2007. Another NewswithViews columnist, Lynn Stuter, included Wooldridge’s list, with some updated links, in an article posted on April 15, 2008.

The source cited for at least nine of the items is either the conservative Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) or the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), both of which call for more restrictive immigration laws


The claim is that illegal immigrants cost $338 billion a year, more than the Iraq war. Of course, it takes about five clicks to get to the Department of Defense's budget, which is just under $700 billion. Iv'e earlier posted actual budget amounts for various social welfare programs, taken from official sources. And I can't speak highly enough of the fact check site and the Annenberg's. If memory serves, their family supported artists and were the first owners of "Nude descending a staircase."
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2827

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
You diminished the argument to my being afraid of choir boys instead of discussing whether you thought this was true or not. I find that to be selective editing.


The inconvenient fact that I did not mention choirboys or your fear of them in any of my posts does not strengthen that line of argument. I answered your position quite clearly........I do not regard Christians singing a traditional hymn as a threat.

coboardhead wrote:
Instead of stating your position, I should have flat out asked "Is it ok to use inflamatory religious rhetoric as a tool to rile up one's POLITICAL base?


That's an entirely different question.......and one I choose not to address during the playoffs.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5968

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I hope you are not joining the ranks of the name callers and finger pointers.........I briefly went down that path...."


mrgybe, quite often here your comments can carry quite an edge, with the goal being criticizing the target party or group in a negative way, however cleverly it's delivered. To say that you're not doing that is simply not being honest about it. Many of us have opinions about what people say here, and I would say they're being expressed according to one's interests and style. Of course, not everybody's style is easy to tolerate for one reason or another, thereby attracting a focused, and sometimes a very pointed response. Blunt candor can be tough to accept. Not all of us are worried about bystanders, nor should we be.

Frankly, I don't buy "the name callers and finger pointers" diversion, like you're standing on the hill.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14476

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correction: further digging found larger E.D. numbers which cut my “twice as much” to “only” 1.5 times as much. So sorry.

From Obama’s 2010 budget request at
http://tinyurl.com/4pd8yn6 we see that
The DOE 2010 budget request was $26B, ED’s was $47B, total $73B.

From http://tinyurl.com/46goexg, the most comprehensive analysis to date of how much the estimated 13 million illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children cost federal, state and local governments shows that illegal alien welfare and social services costs taxpayers $113B/yr.
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