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Big government in Europe? National socialism in America?
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3753
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard. You're argument is based around money, thats all. You are upset because some of YOUR tax dollars are going to people who you dont think deserve them. That is an unfortunate and frustrating position you seem to be in. Im happy for your family, but not everyone possesses the determination and smarts to be financially successful. Im always amused when somebody , who has made it, is upset at GOVT. Its a crazy notion that just because you've made it, you have carte blanche to make fun of inner city welfare recipients. My suggestion is to focus less on other peoples misfortune, and more on the crispy waves breaking outside your window.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5579

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard said:
Quote:
My wife's family (10 bros and sisters) came from Mexico, and picked fruit. Now half of them are millionaires and the others incredibly successful professionals. They never received welfare. They worked hard and got athletic scholarships. Continued to work hard, and acheived big success.

How did they do it without big government? Drug test welfare recipients and you'd loose a third. I'll bet another third could run the 100 meters faster than me.

Necessity is the mother of invention. America was better prior to the big welfare state.

Q: How did a bunch of Mexicans in the 1950's and 60's make it in this horribly prejudiced and inequitable country? A: They worked harder than us.


Stevenbard--did you actually take any math course, particularly statistics? If so, you would know the folly of taking anecdotal evidence and trying to make it the basis of all societal observations.

What you have illustrated here is the benefit of immigrants, from whatever country and whether legal or not. To get to America they had to have the initiative to overcome immense hurdles. They tend to be much more entrepeneurial than either those who didn't immigrate, or those who are already here. They are not typical!! It is only one reason why the Republican myth of sending them all back is an incredibly bad idea.

Look at gangs in East Los Angeles. They tend to come from either entrenched poverty, or they are incredibly entrepeneurial--in the drug trade. Again, with enough numbers you can draw more reasonable conclusions. the kids I teach who are children of recent immigrants come from a very different background and culture than the kids of entrenched poverty.

I would venture that poverty, drugs, and the breakdown of the family have done far more to ravage the black community than welfare. But even if you are correct, the question is what do we do now? I teach children of alcoholics and drug abusers. They manifest the same--they are in a chaotic home environment. Your "tough love" is just bullshit when it comes to the kids. You are prone to say no one goes hungry, but on that you are just wrong.

There is a highly defensive culture, rooted in shame, associated with much of the multi-generational poor in this country. They are more frequently of color in the cities, but not in the country. I deal with their children every day, and my world is not so simple--or simplistic--as yours.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4344

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac, Living in Malibu, I have a close friend that runs one of the major drug rehab clinics here.

He says it all boils down to teaching people how to perform self-esteemable acts. In other words, helping other people, making a difference, not just taking with no thanks.

Just for once I'd like to open my mailbox and see a letter like this.

Dear Sir,

I've been receiving welfare for 5 years, and would like to thank you for paying more taxes in one year than I have in my whole life. I know in the early days I smoked dope while you were getting your MBA. I also know that you missed alot of days sailing in the 1980's because you were working so hard. Well anyway, I'm enjoying my new flat screen tv made by chinese children while I sit on my ass, but I'm a victim of America and people who actually work hard.

Please keep working so I can enjoy the life to which I've become accustomed to.

Sincerely yours
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Mac, Living in Malibu, I have a close friend that runs one of the major drug rehab clinics here.

He says it all boils down to teaching people how to perform self-esteemable acts. In other words, helping other people, making a difference, not just taking with no thanks.

Just for once I'd like to open my mailbox and see a letter like this.

Dear Sir,

I've been receiving welfare for 5 years, and would like to thank you for paying more taxes in one year than I have in my whole life. I know in the early days I smoked dope while you were getting your MBA. I also know that you missed alot of days sailing in the 1980's because you were working so hard. Well anyway, I'm enjoying my new flat screen tv made by chinese children while I sit on my ass, but I'm a victim of America and people who actually work hard.

Please keep working so I can enjoy the life to which I've become accustomed to.

Sincerely yours


Living in Malibu etc....

Wow, what an ugly, ugly example of social envy from the top. What do we call this opposite of compassionate conservatism? This attitude driven by complete absence of humanistic values? I don't wish you suffer the hand of destiny, but boy, would it open your eyes.

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4344

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No humanistic value? Once again a liberal attack with no basis.

I contribute hundreds of hours and $ per year to youth development as a coach and mentor amoung other things. (all races)

What do you do?
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1979
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
No humanistic value? Once again a liberal attack with no basis.

I contribute hundreds of hours and $ per year to youth development as a coach and mentor amoung other things. (all races)

What do you do?


Like I posted earlier, Steven, it's not only what you do but the positions you advocate. Nobody should dump on honest volunteer efforts. But merely being a volunteer does not provide one an "out" when being challenged for one's political views and written statements in support. Doing one thing but saying another is at best hypocritical, even if the actions are laudable and the speech quite another.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
No humanistic value? Once again a liberal attack with no basis.

I contribute hundreds of hours and $ per year to youth development as a coach and mentor amoung other things. (all races)

What do you do?


I did 22 consecutive months of community service (since I didn't find it a good use of my time to shoot at cardboard cutouts of Russians in 1988).

Bathed, changed and washed war amputees and MS patients, drove ambulances, helped old & lonely people with their shopping. I own a business now, but I know what life looks like from the other side. You apparently do not.

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4344

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

touche'

Just incredibly short sighted.

Still don't understand how anyone can trust govt. or welfare.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
touche'

Just incredibly short sighted.

Still don't understand how anyone can trust govt. or welfare.


Look at it from the other point of view. Can you explain to me why I would want to employ someone who's goal in life is to live on welfare and get a cheap buzz once in a while? (i.e. your poster welfare recipient, who no doubt exists)

...and I would not call unemployment welfare (that is money that was paid into the system by the people before they got laid off) while there are still 4 job seekers for each job.

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4344

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't 2 years plenty of unemployment before you consider yourself on welfare? Just how long would it take before this distiction?

I mean, after one year, shouldn't you have to join the wpa or something. Push a broom, or pick up liter once a week? Enter into job training?

This is a mess, and too many old established people are out of work. But it's not big business's fault. We are all responsible to create value for our world. Be a better sweeper. Be a better salesman. Be a better windsurfer. Be a better football player. Be a better carpenter.
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