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Big government in Europe? National socialism in America?
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject: Big government in Europe? National socialism in America? Reply with quote

This man reminds me of Churchill. He saved the idiots in Europe from the gas chambers, then they voted him out of office.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSYMpuCFaQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG2yzaiqezI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vBqyG6qYXE

Bureaucracy instead of democracy. You fools think big government has ever worked anywhere? THEY ARE STEALING OUR DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have” -- Pres Gerald Ford

Towards those ends are federal Judges Moon’s and Steeh’s decisions that it is legal to force every one of us to purchase Obamacare. Both judges upheld the mandate under the Constitution’s Commerce Clause alone on the grounds that failure to purchase health insurance, even if it doesn’t qualify as “economic activity,” is an “economic decision” that has substantial effects on interstate commerce. From a consortium of law professors:
“Economic decisions,” [Steeh] reasoned, include decisions not to engage in economic activity. This approach would allow the Commerce Clause to cover virtually any choice of any kind. Any decision to do anything is necessarily a decision not to use the same time and effort to engage in “economic activity.”

Under the same reasoning, the government could force every U.S. citizen to buy any product marketed in two or more states, including a GM car or Nancy Pelosi’s memoirs. If we choose to spend an hour sleeping, we necessarily choose not to spend that time working or buying products. Under Judge Steeh’s logic, the Commerce Clause authorizes Congress to force workers to get up earlier in the morning so that they would spend more time on the job.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is very funny! Let's say you want to spend 24 hours in bed sleeping, or 20 hours sleeping and 4 hours windsurfing, and those are the only two activities that you engage in. You are now forced to do something, or face consequences. I have just lost my freedom. We are now no better than sheep being led about by our noses, by the government.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1930
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
That is very funny! Let's say you want to spend 24 hours in bed sleeping, or 20 hours sleeping and 4 hours windsurfing, and those are the only two activities that you engage in. You are now forced to do something, or face consequences. I have just lost my freedom. We are now no better than sheep being led about by our noses, by the government.


You assumption that freedom is unlimited and absolute from the start is incorrect, to put it mildly. Nobody in the USA was born with total and absolute freedom to act or not act as he or she wishes at all times, free of consequences.

Steven, do you actually believe that compulsory education and the real estate taxes that support it are examples of "lost freedom?" Do you believe that every law or rule governing behavior is a lost freedom? What about speed limits on residential streets?

Superlatives achieve nothing toward creating a better society. BTW, I think bulls are led around by their noses, not sheep.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one has to be educated. It's a fact that 60% of people who leave LA public schools are brain dead.

People don't have to pay real estate taxes if they don't want to. Just don't buy it.

We have a local bum at Leo Carrillo who sleeps under the bridge there. He does nothing but collect bottles and cans, then rides his bicycle to the market to buy food. He repeats the process every day. Sometimes the lifeguards hire him to clean up trash too. He pays no taxes, has no responsibility, has no health insurance, and doesn't pay any taxes. A very nice guy living his American dream.

Perfect freedom to pursue happiness. What if he ends up in trouble for not yielding to this new national socialism?
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1930
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most who "choose" to live under a bridge are either fantastic, pink-haired trolls speaking Middle English or suffer from moderate to serious mental illness that affects their legal capacity to make a deliberative choice in the first instance.

No one is forced to succeed in elementary education, but parents are generally required by law to ensure their child's attendance, and most kids are forced to attend school by somebody, if not their own family.

You attempted to set an absolute rule about freedom that is, in fact, not absolute at all. Not even close. Your example of a guy who loves living under a bridge only proves the fragility of your argument. In order to obtain things he might want, like food of a certain quality or smokes or something, he must compromise total freedom in order to participate in society -if only to cash an occasional check or trade cash for an apple at Trancas Market. If total freedom existed he would not be forced to live under a bridge, but he could move into your place! Laws are designed to discourage him from spooning with you absent your consent.

To say that a penalty for failing to comply with a govt. edict is a loss of freedom is little more than an axiom.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5080

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard--you are just as mean as a snake. Do you know this guy's story? Do you know if he is mentally ill? Is he a veteran? Do you actually think he chose thislife? Here's a few facts about homeless people that might affect someone with a heart:

A study done by the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty in 2007, which states that approximately 3.5 million people, 1.35 million of them children, are likely to experience homelessness in a given year. This translates to approximately one percent of the U.S. population. Of the estimated 744,000 people who are homeless on any given night, 40 to 45 percent of them have a serious mental illness. The number of people in families that were homeless rose by 9 percent from Oct. 1, 2007, to Sept. 30, 2008. Here is just one site where you might actually learn something.
http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=23049

Do you really think taking some kind of care of this 1% of the country will break us? I think treating them as you would demeans our whole society.

I teach first graders that mean people suck. Think about it, sucker.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? The health care plan is socialism because a homeless person may have to buy insurance? That will cut into his discretionary spending, perhaps. That could be bad for the economy. Laughing

The health care plan will allow him to apply for an exemption, if he cannot find insurance that he can afford. The plan, also will provide additional funding for public clinics, so he can utilize health service, if needed in a less costly environment than the ER (less of MY soda cans).

There is a summary on Healthcare.gov for a timeline and general provisions of the health care law.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5745

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard, are we talking about Gil?

From what I've seen, he appears to sleep in between the dense chaparral above the beach rather than under the bridge. He's got a regular spot and a routine that works for him, and it's an area that he maintains well and keeps clean of any refuse or debris. The guy lives a very simple life, and as you say, he's a nice guy. On the scheme of things, the authorities at the park have seemingly accepted him and give him a reasonable amount of space. From his comments, he contributes in some beach maintenance activities, like recyclable trash collection, and may receive some token compensation from the park.

From my contact with him, I get the impression that he might have some underlying mental health issues. While I don't believe he represents any kind of threat to the community or the state park, it's clear that he's not your average guy with a day job. To be honest, I found folks like him at most of the beaches I've frequented over the years. These homeless folks just try to fit in into the woodwork and not create a lot of waves.

Some may want to ride hard on these folks for not being model citizens, but things aren't always that simple. Gil might end up needing help from society at some point in his life, but we often need to be generous to those less capable of handling life's normal responsibilities.

Ever since Ronald Reagan, when he was the governor of California, turned out troubled folks from state hospitals to the street, we're in a position where we must learn to live with these folks in our communities. Surely not our model citizens, but what can we really do other than get along.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4012

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The troubled people were turned out by the aclu. Yes it is Gil, and I have nothing but admiration for him, as I see him working every day, unlike so many welfare recipients with flat screen TV's., cell phones, and cars.

He is the ultimate green citizen, not a hypocrite, but a hero. C'mon all you welfare recipients, do stuff like Gil around the hood!

ps. History of the decline of Rome: "The minds of men were gradually reduced to the same level, the fire of genius was extinguished."
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