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Why the GOP IS the root of all evil...
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2274
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
DanWeiss wrote:
If the top tier earners aren't investing enough now, why would keeping things the same change their behavior? It makes absolutely no sense.


It makes complete sense. If you are under threat of having a pay cut, you are likely to reduce your expenditures. If you subsequently find out your pay will not be cut, you are more likely to open the purse strings again. What makes absolutely no sense is individuals and businesses not knowing what their tax rates will be in 27 days. Huge uncertainty created by a bunch of incompetents.


But that's not the argument being posed either by Mat-ty or the GOP. Each assert that failing to renew the Bush-era tax cuts will fail to bring in new stimulative money from the private sector.

To your point, I suspect we all can live with the effect of 27 days of uncertainty because, according to your argument, it is the stability that encourages stimulative spending. Will the floodgates open on day 28 no matter the tax rate for AGI +$250k?

What bothers me so very much is the inability to demonstrate the macro-economic benefit of trickle-down economics. While it seems to make sense at first blush, it results in either removing direct benefits to fund tax breaks, or paying for the investment in top earners by way of unbalanced budgets. Both of which are hallmarks of GOP Congresses, btw.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 5996

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.aei.org/article/102288

Its amazing, the biggest defenders of all things liberal, the windsurfing economic gurus, are from the three states that are dying because of idiotic liberal ways. Cali, Mass, and New york, all drowning . People(that work) and businesses are packing up and leaving by the truck load.
Maybe when the moron obama focuses on the economy, instead of gays with guns, or a soccer game 20 years from now, we can get people back to work.
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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 8335

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mat-ty wrote:
http://www.aei.org/article/102288

Its amazing, the biggest defenders of all things liberal, the windsurfing economic gurus, are from the three states that are dying because of idiotic liberal ways. Cali, Mass, and New york, all drowning . People(that work) and businesses are packing up and leaving by the truck load.
Maybe when the moron obama focuses on the economy, instead of gays with guns, or a soccer game 20 years from now, we can get people back to work.


Well said. It's the philosophy of "take it instead of earn it", make it, and I'll consume it because I deserve it.

They are morally bankrupt.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 4569

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
But that's not the argument being posed either by Mat-ty or the GOP. Each assert that failing to renew the Bush-era tax cuts will fail to bring in new stimulative money from the private sector.

To your point, I suspect we all can live with the effect of 27 days of uncertainty because, according to your argument, it is the stability that encourages stimulative spending. Will the floodgates open on day 28 no matter the tax rate for AGI +$250k?


With respect, I believe that is the argument being made..........and with good cause. From all reports there are trillions of dollars being held on the sidelines by businesses while uncertainty reigns. That is not a 27 day phenomenon.........it has been building for many months while Congress dithers. When there is certainty businesses can have a basis with which to plan.......and maybe, release some part of those trillions. However, I'm not convinced that a short term hold-over of current tax rates will do the trick.........but that's what we may get.
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dperzinski



Joined: 04 Aug 2001
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Remeber the Irish-miracle? Reply with quote

This accusation that the GOP are evil is nonsense. They are good people and all children of God. We should all remember that. They have bought into this notion of trickle-down economics because it makes sense to them and they think it will make us all more prosperous.

But there is also a notion of trickle-up economics that works at the same time. When the average Joe has more money to spend on refrigerators and ipods, corporations will compete to get a share of that wealth. Even if their percentage profit is less because of higher taxes, their profit will be more because their sales will be more.

Somewhere in the middle (between trickle-down tax cuts for the rich and trickle-up progressive tax) is a right balance. Is there no empirical data at this day and age of computer number crunching that can find that balance? Can’t we put the ideology aside and stop screaming “Socialist and Evil-doers”?

About 10 years ago, I kept hearing about the so-called Irish miracle. Ireland had lowered its taxes and was drawing corporation from other countries. Their economy was booming. But they had no money to support infrastructure. Yet, the growth of their economy was demanding more infrastructure. Now, look at the mess their in.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2717

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is good...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-laQ0uvnl5M

_________________
/w\
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 12513
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dperzinski--remember that this posting was in direct response to, and parody, of bard's posting that Obama was the root of all evil. It is, you are right, characteristic of shouting past each other.

You make a good point--we should try to examine the actual facts behind tax cuts and their economic impacts. There are some pretty good studies that indicate that the modification of the progressive, nay punitive, tax structure during the Eisenhower and earlier administrations were beneficial. Those rates were very high. The Laffer curve has been pretty well discredited. Remember, we are talking about a difference between 36% and 39% on the top level of income tax. Other taxes--estate and capital gains, are pretty well gamed to assure protection of capital and encourage investment.

It is not fair to blame the Bush tax cuts for exodus of jobs--that started before Bush, and is a response to the dramatic difference in wage structures, and the NAFTA type trade policies. It is fair to ask whether they are fundamentally fair, economically viable, and whether they amount to actual subsidies of job export. All three can, I believe, be found and should be addressed.

Finally, mrgybe's blaming of current economic uncertainty on Obama and Congress is just as absurd as blaming job losses on Bush's tax cuts. Nobody understands what economy will emerge out of the current rubble. So investors (outside of securities, which remain pretty robust) are sitting on their capital or buying companies that will help reduce their operating costs--and will, by the way, reduce jobs. Blaming this on Obama is purely delusional. I don't hear any cries from the right about tax measures that would actually incentivize a return to manufacturing, and the jobs it might create. Without strings, capital will follow profits and ignore job formation in this country. That, dear sirs, is the lesson of the Bush cuts.
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dperzinski



Joined: 04 Aug 2001
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mac"] It is not fair to blame the Bush tax cuts for exodus of jobs--that started before Bush, and is a response to the dramatic difference in wage structures, and the NAFTA type trade policies. It is fair to ask whether they are fundamentally fair, economically viable, and whether they amount to actual subsidies of job export. All three can, I believe, be found and should be addressed.

Yes, Thanks for the response
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19119

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Remeber the Irish-miracle? Reply with quote

dperzinski wrote:
Somewhere in the middle (between trickle-down tax cuts for the rich and trickle-up progressive tax) is a right balance. Is there no empirical data at this day and age of computer number crunching that can find that balance?


That data proves that federal revenues run just under 19% of GNP as tax rates of all sorts on all income brackets rise and fall. Thus why not minimize those tax rates so individuals and business can better spend, invest, grow, create, R&D, hire, etc.? Why not grow the whole wealth pie by letting capitalism shine so everyone can benefit, rather than shrink the pie by stifling capitalism by taking slices from the more productive people and businesses, letting government hogs feed on those slices, and giving what's left to the less productive people?
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dperzinski



Joined: 04 Aug 2001
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iso wrote: "why not minimize those tax rates so individuals and business can better spend, invest, grow, create, R&D, hire, etc.? "

Maybe, at some point business looks out into the future and says, "I can't spend and grow more, this infrastructure won't support it. There aren't enough roads, bridges, ports, or educated people or people with income to support my products."
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