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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question Mac,
"Reagan remains, for some reasons that escape me, a saint. "
I know why our party decided to sanctify Reagan from attending Party meeting in the 80s and 90s.We have no one else. The party was mad at Bush Sr. for raising taxes and paying the bills. They wanted to run up the debt instead.
Before we had Nixon-an actual criminal- so we had to have someone to be proud of and Reagan was personally a nice guy with Alzheimers.
He was our only choice. When they made an accurate miniseries based on his life for TV a rich Republican bought it for millions because the myth doesn't match the history and he didn't want it to be seen by the public.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As iso explains
"Taxes are Marxist wealth redistribution taxes by definition if they take money or property from some people according to their means and give cash or goods or services to others according their “needs”..."

Thats why socialists love all the socialist programs the GOP supports such as the Drug benefit or Medicare and Vet disability benefits.
They don't call them Socialist because they are getting the check instead of someone else.
Other social programs are tiny compared to these big ones the GOP supports.For the hate to be real the far right has to define the words in ways that serve them.
Most countries in the world have socialist programs like the USA and Europe, but they vary in how successful they are. The central control Communist variety are losers. The Isreali commune style works quite well and the Fijians and other traditional village systems often do OK.
These programs cost a lot in the US but have made a lot of folks happy.
Very few Americans or Euros would give up on their socialist benefits, no matter how loud they scream socialist at the idea of someone else getting a check who "deserves" it less than they do.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker wrote:
Veterans benefits are also well deserved Socialist programs - esp disability benefits.

He said they use the word socialism as hate speech because neither conservatives or libs know what that means. He said the libs use the word neoconservative in the same way.

He found it interesting that some teas have suggested dismantling SS Dept Ed, and Medicare among other things. They are the only true conservatives.
They are willing to give up socialist programs that benefit themselves and he admired them for being true to their conservative views. unlike the hypocrites screaming socialist on the way to cashing their Gov checks.


Socialism/communism are involuntary systems; the U.S. military is not only voluntary but capitalistic. The government has something some people want, and the two entities negotiate a price acceptable to both parties. The price varies with supply and demand. When the government needs more doctors, lawyers, pilots, grunts, mechanics, engineers, etc., pay and benefits including educational opportunities go up. War ends ... yer outta here. Pure capitalism, and except under extraordinary circumstances either party to the contract can walk away from it within months.

Socialism and communism are pretty well defined, and should be used only when ... and EVERY TIME ... they fit. The only definition I've found of "neocon" is "people who converted from the Democrat party to the Republican party". Its use in any other way, without definition, makes no sense.

The TR shows I listen to, and myself in many cases, are strongly against Medicare, Social Security, unemployment benefits, minimum wages, S-P G-R UHC, welfare, and many similar socialistic programs except for the very small percentage who really need some assistance due to circumstances genuinely beyond their control. They favor some means of phasing them out fairly promptly, compromising between completely screwing those already heavily invested and screwing those who will clearly get nothing out of them despite paying into them. I've said many times that although I expect SPGRUHC to help me very significantly, I oppose it vehemently because it will destroy the finest major nation medical system on the planet. Similarly, I haven't complained myself or heard other financially comfortable vets complain when they pay more and get less medical coverage than poorer vets based on means tests. And as explained above, earned government checks are capitalistic; it's unearned handouts that fall into the socialistic or communistic bins.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker wrote:
Thats why socialists love all the socialist programs the GOP supports such as the Drug benefit or Medicare and Vet disability benefits.


How are benefits to volunteer vets socialistic?
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insh8bl



Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 181
Location: San Francisco, CA & Coconut Cove, Maui HI

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iso wrote: “blab, blab, blab…and their supporters in this forum and their little San Francisco coffee houses -- don’t like being called socialists or communists, the cure is as obvious as hell: STOP THINKING AND BEHAVING AND LEGISLATING LIKE SOCIALISTS AND COMMUNISTS.”

Wow, I would have never guessed Mike would conjure up that as a retort. Laughing

“The Grove” isn’t that small actually.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Earning the right to get a check when you aren't working anymore is at the heart of socialism. Those talk radio hosts and most of their listeners cash those checks with impunity. Those who oppose socialism for real send those checks back.
Oh wait- they "deserve" that check and others don't.
After the hurricane in Belize many folks were homeless or out of work for months. I arrived with a pile of donations and found not one person asking for a handout,even for their hungry kids. They all wanted jobs and right now.
I ask some if they were getting food from the lineup at the Red Cross in the early morning.Several said no what is that line all about? I have no money to pay.
These are folks who worked hard all their lives and are in trouble through no fault of their own. When they are not working they expect no check even after they retire or get hurt.
In Belize we are not a socialist society. When I compare this to Americans expectation of their gov, it is obvious how socialist we have become under Bush and Reagan.
Clinton rolled welfare back a bit but Bush Jr.came back strong with the Drug Benefit, keeping socialism alive for the rich and the poor alike.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"people who converted from the Democrat party to the Republican party". Its use in any other way, without definition, makes no sense.

Nothing makes sense to those who comment on it and have no idea what it is. Two posters defined it correctly at length including references to the neo periodicals he reads, the origin of the word, its evolution, etc at length.No other term has been more thoroughly defined here.
After that iso said he knows nothing about it so those posters are wrong.
I think several more explanations to him would have no effect. He would still know nothing about it but everyone who understands it would still be wrong.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1393

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Capitalism: Its goal is individual freedom.
<snip>
Socialism (Marxism) and communism: The goal of both is to ensure that everyone has the same amount of stuff.
<snap>


You just can't dumb down these things that far. What is this, second grade? The "goals" of either system is organizing the production and markets for goods and services.

Capitalism is a system in which supply and demand drives prices. It is a self-regulating system and works really well up to a point. However with the accumulation of capital and power in the hands of few, it is inherently and increasingly at risk, especially through the boom and bust cycles that an unregulated market comes with.

Socialism as an idea came about after the industrial revolution and was meant to introduce centralized planning and organization to the production and distribution of goods and to return ownership of the goods produced to the workers who produced them.

That socialist and capitalist societies developed in the way they did, is a by-product of how the different societies are organized. Totalitarianism is almost an inevitable consequence of any centralized social structure. The big mistake that the reght-leaning libertarian ideologues are making is to turn a blind eye to the centralization of money and power in a maturing free-market society. Ultimately, this poses the same dangers to a free society as the ideological totalitarianism of the left.

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker wrote:
Earning the right to get a check when you aren't working anymore is at the heart of socialism.

Two posters defined it correctly at length including references to the neo periodicals he reads, the origin of the word, its evolution, etc at length.No other term has been more thoroughly defined here.


Please cite them. I have never seen any such cites despite asking the question many times before setting up my killfile capability.

And in what moonbat dictionary is a pension one buys with cash or services "socialism"?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5746

PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"socialism calls for cooperation and social service"

This selected quote from information on the link that florian posted is worthy of some thought, but let's look at the "cooperation and social service" part of it and let's place it in a capitalistic framework.

A good area to consider it is relative to health insurance. Looking at the health insurance alternatives available in the more recent past, there have been many different insurance plans offered by private industry, but what's been particularly problematic is that the costs for the same kind of coverage has been all over the map. Those like myself that worked for large corporations that could leverage off a significant collective of people, the cost for health insurance was greatly reduced when contrasted to self employed individuals, or even folks that worked in small businesses. It safe to say that there was a lot of unfairness out there, and very little incentive or cooperation from the private health insurance industry to resolve that problem.

Now, along comes healthcare reform, where the government introduces the concept of insurance collectives where individuals and folks that work for small businesses can take advantage of the much better rates previously available to only those working for large corporations or the government. I think this sort of cooperation yields a far better social result for Americans, and its still a commitment to capitalism and private industry. While I could argue further that a single payer system run by the government might even yield improvements, but I won't do that in this post.

Although recent healthcare reform is clearly a divisive issue amongst many in this nation, one only has to look at the interstate highway system introduced in the 50s by the Eisenhower Administration. Without the cooperation financially from all Americans working for the social benefit of everyone, it would not have been possible to create such an important contributor that has unquestionably contributed to our dramatic success as nation. I don't think that any enterprising capitalist could argue today that it was a socialist boondoggle, especially since the actual construction was done by private business.

I could talk national defensive, civil space efforts, national parks, water management, environmental protection, airports, harbors, etc. In a large part, who we are as a nation has an awful lot to to with cooperation and an interest in broad social benefits that only the government could have accomplished. And I have to say, as our society gets more and more complex moving into the future, working cooperatively toward a spectrum of social goals becomes continually more important.


Last edited by swchandler on Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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