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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6022

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In mrgybe's example concerning the Tran's estate, I question why his sons sold the business when new investors could potentially be brought in. Of course, the relative value of the business/estate must be substantiated legally, with some possible portion interpreted to be salable in the end. It's not clear why a total exit was the only alternative.

More importantly, it appears like the senior Mr. Tran was a bit short sided on his estate management, as I'm thinking that there were undoubtedly many other viable avenues available to better protect inheritable assets.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3751
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Of course mrgybe's comment is a straw man as well. There are ways to shelter family businesses, such as creating partnerships along the way. Tax reform in the past has in particular made it possible for farm owners to pass their holdings along to heirs that want to stay in the business. I think those reforms all make sense. In mrgybe's example, rhetorical as it is, the heirs get $3.25 million after taxes. I should weep for them? What percentage of the US wealth spectrum does that put them at? 95th or 98th?

Its not onlt that. If the Business was a limted partnership, with his sons as partners, when Tran passed, the tab would be much smaller. If Tran had planned ahead everything would have been ok, but he was the sole owner of the asset, and that is where he erred. I think this country has always had the best incentives for making money and always will. People move here from all parts to grab a slice of the dream, and that will never change, and we've had an estate tax for many many decades of outrageous growth. An exemption in the 2.5-4.5M range is fair.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2888

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The consensus seems to be that it's OK to keep accumulated wealth provided one is sufficiently sophisticated to put proper estate planning in place........but if one does not possess that sophistication, then it's OK for the government to take the lion's share of a lifetime's effort. Gates, Buffet etc. will likely not pay estate taxes........but an incredibly hardworking, unsophisticated, first generation immigrant will.....and lose the business in the process. Compassion anyone?

Incidentally, this is not a straw man..........I estimated the numbers, but otherwise this is real. Oh, and one of the son's in this delightful and very traditional family, was so ashamed at "losing" the business his father had spent his lifetime building, that he left the US and took his own family back to Vietnam.

Another feel good story courtesy of wealth redistribution.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3751
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No tears here. He and his family could not have done what they did anywhere else on the planet . And setting up an LP is not estate planning, its just one choice for titling a business. I think one must think long and hard what the outcome would be without any estate taxes. 90% of the heirs of wealthy families are not ambitious, or incentivized to work hard. im not sure if thats because they have tons of money, which they buy good Humbolt buds with or they would rather wait til their parents croak. Wealth redistribution has always, and will always be part of the Western Socialist economic structure. Many, myself included, believe that by lifting someone up, helps to create a more fluid economy. If we pass the bulk of net worth on from family to family, maybe the USA would resemble Saudi Arabia some day.
Mr. G. Im always perplexed how those on the right vilify Gates and Buffett, two of Americas greatest capitalists of ALL time.....seems wacked.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2888

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
And setting up an LP is not estate planning, its just one choice for titling a business.


Your lack of understanding of the topics on which you apparently advise clients, is truly breathtaking.



What is a Family Limited Partnership?
January 18, 2010 at 3:19 pm by Anthony Medico, Estate Planning Attorney

What is a Family Limited Partnership?

The Family Limited Partnership (FLP) is a limited partnership created to transfer ownership of assets to family members with a minimum of tax consequences. The FLP is designed to lower the value of your investments and assets (for estate tax purposes) while still allowing you to maintain full control of your estate inside the limited partnership. It works particularly well to transfer a family business, real estate or an investment portfolio to the next generation. It helps to reduce estate taxes and to reduce the risk that assets would need to be sold to pay those taxes.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3751
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're missing my point. If Mr. Tran set a limited partnership, his children would not have inherited the asset , they would have been OWNERS of the asset. Is this not hard to understand? If you want to contunue to attack attack attack, have at it. But remember, you, Mr. G. bid us farewell last Spring, and now you are back, full of bile. Take a deep breath, be happy to be in America, and enjoy paying taxes like the rest of us.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3751
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. G I enjoy the debate, but you constantly seem to attack on technicalities, and me , or Mac, or anyone else on the left who is not a wordsmith. My point is the argument gets buried, and you just shove it down my throat. I have ZERO sympathy, ZERO, for someone who prospers in business, but does not take neccessary steps to insure to continuity of his/her business , simple steps. you call them sophisticated Estate planning steps, I disagree. Mr. Tran's son went back to VietNam with millions of dollars, and he made it in the USA, not Thailand, not China, not England, not Australia.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5560

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe uses one of the tricks of the right wing, quoting something that you didn't say to disagree with you and ridicule your position. Buried, of course, under a surface veneer of British civility. Here he says:
Quote:
The consensus seems to be that it's OK to keep accumulated wealth provided one is sufficiently sophisticated to put proper estate planning in place........but if one does not possess that sophistication, then it's OK for the government to take the lion's share of a lifetime's effort.


No such consensus. What we are saying is there is ample room in the tax code system for any business to protect a substantial amount of the capital, and the viability of the business, from estate taxes. Indeed, the lion's share of the example's assets pass on to the heirs. If their work helped build the business, they would or should have an ownership interest that could readily be protected. So his "consensus" is fake, created for snarky rhetorical value.

Let me be clear. I favor tax policies that would apply equally to the Bush, Clinton and Kennedy families, that would tax a reasonable amount of their inherited wealth when it is inherited. The Republicans, when given authority didn't simply increase the amount that could be protected, it let it all pass without taxation. Kind of like peerage.

If mrgybe wants to argue for a fairer taxation system, he might find me agreeing with him--but challenging him to be specific, and to be politically feasible. Snarky comments, with only a veneer of civility, irritate the hell out of me.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2888

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
Living trusts do not reduce inheritance taxes for subsequent beneficiaries.


boggsman1 wrote:
If the Trust is set up correctly, the spouse can avoid a portion of the inheritance tax, under a certain amount, BUT a Trust does NOT avoid the eventuality of the inheritance tax, when its passed on to the heirs.


boggsman1 wrote:
And setting up an LP is not estate planning, its just one choice for titling a business.


My comments are not mere wordsmithing. All of the quotes above are fundamental misstatements. Coming as they do from a professed subject matter expert, they could lead a reader of this forum, or a client, to take actions, or to fail to take them, which could cost them huge amounts in estate taxes.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3751
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr G . Its not likely that one of my fellow Bay Area windsurfers is going to plan his Estate based on a forum on iwindsurf.com. So, if you want to brow beat me continue to do so, if you get off on it, Im happy to lift your spirits. If you want to have a discussion about the subject matter, then I welcome it...it does not appear to be the case.
BTW- item #1 is still factually correct, #2 was a mistake, #3 was a misstatement, you know what I meant, you just chose to avoid the topic, which was the laziness, or ignorance of the hard working Vietnamese man.
bye
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