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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2549

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
I really wish the righties out there were raising hell when Bush upped our national debt from 4.8TR-almost 10 Tr during his reign, we could have used the tea baggers in 2003, 2005, 2006.


It's my recollection that Republicans did feel the anger of the country, in part because of their fiscal incompetence. Has the current administration learned from GW's mistakes?

GW Bush
National Debt Increase - almost $5 trillion
Period - 8 years
Analysis - Outrageously poor governance
Result - Republicans rightly thrown out of office in landslide

BH Obama
National Debt Increase - over $3 trillion and rising fast
Period - 16 months
Analysis - You've got to be kidding!
Result - hmmm, I wonder
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5694

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've got to be joking, right? Trying to summarize Obama's presidency with a few meaningless bullets says more about your patent dislike for him rather than the real issues at hand.

Last edited by swchandler on Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3481
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Keynes experiment works, the debt will start reversing in 3 or 4 years. For now, I think we had no choice but the path we took.
In terms of a response , there were no Tea Baggers out there protesting Bush's massive spendthrift ways, none, nobody nada. Eventually the voters rejected his BS, but during the terms , no protests, no op-eds , no nothing.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4981

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's almost, but not quite, a real discussion going on. I think most of what is happening politically is posturing over the coming expiration of the Bush tax cuts. Those cuts have importance to the deficit and to the future direction of the economy. The biggest policy question for the future of the nation may well be what happens, and how well have we thought it through.

While the right now complains about the current deficits, and has developed the simple message that "We've learned our lesson, we won't do it again." (and by the way, did you notice that the President is black and a socialist?--McCain's message.) The reality is somewhat different. The Bush tax cuts, weighted toward high incomes, left the current administration with a deep structural deficit. (Don't worry, the Democrats in California are responsible for the deep structural deficit here, but are willing to blame it all on Arnold's repeal of the car fees, which only accounts for about 1/3 of the structural deficit.)

The more telling problem is that the Bush tax cuts didn't deliver the promised economic benefits--the rising tide that lifted all boats. Instead, it helped subsidize the continued offshoring of jobs, and helped fuel the housing bubble. But the left would be foolish to blame tax cuts for offshoring, the higher wages in the United States (and other countries in the European market) are the root cause. Unless those higher wages are matched up with higher productivity, that trend can't be cured by tax incentives/disincentives or protectionism. I don't hear either party, or the TEA baggers, talking about that problem realistically. Of greater concern, I don't see proposals from the business side that might help.

I think that the cost of labor in this country will be adjusted by market forces, no matter what we do with politicians and/or tax policies. And it is pretty clear that the housing bubble, and the problems with governmental revenue drops, throughout the world, have not worked their way out of the world's economies. The cuts in service, not just in Greece, but also here and in Britain, are going to cause problems for the parties in power for at least two more years.

The one irony that I would note is that it took Democrats, and Obama in particular, to force the hand of the auto workers union into real concessions. I don't think any Republican leader in this country could have done that. It remains to be seen whether what was, just barely, politically feasible, is enough to save this iconic American industry.

So the question I would pose to deeper thinkers here is take off your gang colors, and opine about what the future American economy can be, and how best to move in that direction.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2549

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
You've got to be joking, right? Trying to summarize Obama's presidency with a few meaningless bullets says more about your patent dislike for him rather than the real issues at hand.


Trying to equate my specific focus on the national debt with an appraisal of the Obama presidency could also also say something about your ability to follow a thread. Incidentally, I don't find an $8 trillion increase in the national debt in under 10 years "meaningless".........it is very much a "real issue".
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4981

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chandler--have you noticed that mrgybe's problems with the clarity of his communication are always someone else's fault?
Quote:
your ability to follow a thread


Personal responsibility and support for the provisions in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights seem to be values that can be applied selectively.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5694

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice try mrgybe, but not even close to a score. You're starting to bring up trite nonsense on a par with isobars. I think anybody with serious problems about our escalating debit would credibly look at the circumstances and facts why we're where we are. You've offered nothing there. Yet, you can be depended on to liberally heap criticism on the Obama Administration and the Democrats in Congress at the drop of a hat. Sounds more like a deep prejudice to me. You might despise Obama and what he hopes to accomplish in his presidency, but you have an awful long way to go to sound even remotely credible with your criticisms.

Regarding following this thread, it's my take that the original theme was Apple and unfair labor issues in China. How does that follow with issuing bold blindsides at Obama?
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2549

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Yet, you can be depended on to liberally heap criticism on the Obama Administration and the Democrats in Congress at the drop of a hat. Sounds more like a deep prejudice to me.


mrgybe wrote:(only a few hours ago....how soon we forget!)

GW Bush
National Debt Increase - almost $5 trillion
Period - 8 years
Analysis - Outrageously poor governance
Result - Republicans rightly thrown out of office in landslide



swchandler wrote:
Regarding following this thread, it's my take that the original theme was Apple and unfair labor issues in China. How does that follow with issuing bold blindsides at Obama?


You are absolutely right. On behalf of Boggsy, I apologize that he took us down this path. I'll remind him that some on this forum are easily confused.
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coyotewindsurf



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 1268
Location: SF Bay

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Regarding following this thread, it's my take that the original theme was Apple and unfair labor issues in China. How does that follow with issuing bold blindsides at Obama?


My take is that the OP was just a cheap shot at Gore (he's on the Apple Board of Directors).
mrgybe wrote:
This was news to me until last night. Somehow that iPhone doesn't seem quite so cool now. If it's true, it becomes much clearer how there are so many super rich in Silicon Valley.......they should be ashamed.

Foxconn is a component supplier to many of the major computer-related companies including HP (the largest), Dell (#2), ATi, AMD, Intel, Nokia etc..

Rolling Eyes

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5694

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'll remind him that some on this forum are easily confused."

mac has said many times that there can be a snarky side to your commentary. You know, I think that's coming out more and more.

Damn, do we need another isobars?
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