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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boggsy, It's not your fault. You have lived and worked in the same place essentially all your adult life. If your experience had been a little broader you would have come across people in the real Wall Street, who commute for an hour and a half morning and night, and then put in an 80 hour week. Or associates at white shoe law firms, with the same commute, who are pressured to churn out 40 - 50 billable hours a week, not counting the often considerable non-billable hours. Or the 80+ hour weeks at top consulting firms. Or executives always working 50 -60 hours and then spending the weekend on long haul flights. Or the single parent working 3 jobs. None of these people have cute little cafes with free gourmet food, free massages, bowling alleys, basketball courts and oh so sympathetic support groups. Googlers have no idea what real pressure is. Based upon the time you spend here, it seems that neither do you.

If you think it is OK to fire someone for politely, and privately expressing their views, at a company where that honest dialog is purportedly encouraged, fine. I think it is reprehensible.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear, the goal posts have been moved again. Damore's comments are no longer not offensive, but he never should have been fired for making them.

It reminds me of mrgybe's reflexive response to the shooting of Trayvon Martin. Before the information was all in, mrgybe defended Zimmerman--who turned out to be a thug with criminal problems. There is no such thing as due diligence, examining all the facts as they come in. Instant conclusions that hew closely to political biases are the order of the day.

In this case, we know nothing of Damore's personnel record--nor can we--because it is private. There are many things we don't know--but we do know that his comments were offensive to women. I guess that doesn't matter in the conservative world.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Does anyone think that most of the hires in carbon based energy companies are not conservative, by intentional selection?


Huh!

Mac, I worked as a college student for
a major oil company. When I graduated, I received their top offer. I had shoulder length hair and wore jeans to the office on a regular basis. Yet, my boss sent me all over western US.

The other summer hires represented the most diverse group of people I've ever worked for. My immediate boss was Hispanic at a time when you just didn't find minorities in engineering.

I also worked for a major engineering firm that did extraction consulting. Same thing. A full 25% of the new hires in my class were women.

True that engineers do tend to be more conservative than artists. But, I know a number of pretty liberal guys in the oil/mining industry. My boss, when he made me an offer, told me that if I really was concerned about the environment, I could make the largest impact working for his company.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--A persuasive argument. Thanks. I found lots of folks at the Port of Oakland like mrgybe--reflexively conservative and unable or unwilling to complete research and actually think an issue through. They were a disaster in trying to permit projects, or adjust projects so they could be permitted.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
If you think there's a more competitive , higher paying, intense work envirornment than Silicon Valley, then lets hear it. There's a reason why GOOG+AAPL+FB= $2 TRillion dollars.....go ahead, lets hear it Mr. Teacher....
BTW- it was YOU that brought up what "liberals" dont like, see your above post...that's a political view, and it exposed your view on this subject as nothing more than convenient. Google is pretty good at making decisions, they seem to be doing pretty well.

If you say so, but,,,,,,,,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dozens Of Female Employees Accuse Google Of Gender Discrimination
August 9, 2017 6:23 PM By Kiet Do

Dozens of women have come forward accusing the tech-giant of gender discrimination.
When civil rights attorney James Finberg asked on social media if any female google employees out there thought they were unfairly getting paid less than male coworkers, the phone started ringing.
Finberg said, “In my experience, having 70 people call you when you put up a post about a company is a very large outpouring of dissatisfaction. So I think it’s telling and a matter of concern.”
Back in April, the Office of Federal Contractor Compliance Programs (OFCCP), a division of the Department of Labor, testified in federal court about an ongoing investigation into Google’s pay practices.
In a report by The Guardian, the OFCCP said, “The department has received compelling evidence of very significant discrimination against women in the most common positions at Google headquarters…discrimination against women in google is quite extreme…”
Finberg said, “They complained to human resources and nothing was done about it.”
Finberg, based in San Francisco, is now preparing to file a class-action lawsuit, after interviewing dozens of current and former google employees.
He says the women complained they were getting paid a quarter to a third less than men doing the same work.
Finberg said, “The culture at Google is hostile to women. Women tend to be channeled into what are perceived to be softer positions. User interface positions, design positions. Men get the code positions. Code positions are more highly paid and more highly valued at Google.”
Google has fired back with two detailed blog posts, saying, “We were quite surprised when…the OFCCP accused us of not compensating women fairly.”
“We were taken aback by this assertion, which came without any supporting data or methodology…,” Google claims. “Our annual analysis shows no gender pay gap at Google.”
Google claims, “OFCCP has not taken sufficient steps to learn how our systems work and may not have accurately understood them.”
Finberg is still taking complaints and plans to file the suit in the coming weeks. The statute of limitations to go after back wages in California is four years. With tens of thousands of female employees, if Google loses this suit it could get very expensive for the company.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/08/09/google-accused-of-gender-discrimination/
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9118
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't say so, the market does...$647 B company, third largest in the world, not bad from a formerly little search engine....
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That always does it for you doesn't it Boggsy? You are outraged by a 28 year old privately expressing his opinion, but evidence of real discrimination by Google..........meh who cares, look at the market cap. BTW, you didn't thank me for educating you on jobs with real pressure. Those little darlings at Google, who you believe thrive under the highest pressure in the country, are huddling together in trembling little support groups, so terrified that someone might say something nasty about them online, that they just can't pluck up the courage to have an internal meeting. Google has completely cocked this up. The company is successful despite its management, not because of it.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is appalling to see the lack of understanding of the rights of free speech that passes for reasoning on the right. It is, of course, a little amusing when those mistaken views come from someone who claims the higher ground in reasoning. But it turns to downright dangerous when the right attacks Google under the rubric of the first amendment--and then countenances or at least ignores the wholesale assault of Trump on the freedom of the press.

The initial mistake here is to assert that James Damore's first amendment rights restrict Google. Wrong, the first amendment restricts the coercive power of the government in restraining speech. That does not protect those who speak from the consequences of their actions. If they lie to the government under oath, they cannot protect themselves from perjury charges by claiming first amendment rights. If they falsely cry fire in a crowded theater, they cannot successfully claim free speech as a defense against civil damages for injuries that result.

We of course know nothing about Damore's personnel record, and whether or not he has been disciplined or cautioned in any way for contributing to a hostile environment, or whether that may be a context for his termination. We know little to nothing about Google's policies about contributing to a hostile environment, or whether he ignored a clear "zero tolerance" policy that led to his termination as an at-will employee. (It is amusing to see conservatives, who descry the protections of unions and favor at-will employment make a 180 degree turn for those who politics they support. Consistency is the hobgoblin.) We do know that Google has been publicly blasted for allegedly discriminatory hiring policies and sexist cultural practices that create a hostile working environment for women and minorities. Without knowing the details of those charges, or their veracity, it is easy to see that Google is pretty sensitive about their image and might take actions to improve it, and might take action against someone who further damages their image.

The next reasoning flaw is that anyone who doesn't jump to Damore's defense and a conservative view of his speech, necessarily supports Google. There are many aspects of Google's corporate behavior that make me uncomfortable--including their advertising policies which favor pay to play listings, and their cooperation with the government in providing consumer information. Unfortunately, the vaunted market has not provided us with a better search engine without the Google drawbacks. But it is specious to argue bad behavior by Google in other arenas as a defense of Damore.

Finally, those who wrongly claim first amendment rights for Damore on this forum are consistently silent about Trump's attacks on the free press. From claims of fake news to his latest ploy, setting up a re-election campaign as a putative media outlet, he is the most dangerous--and dishonest--man in public office.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is only one person who has mentioned first amendment rights. See above. Completely misses the point yet again. Ah well, it fills those empty hours.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely misses the point. Tell me mrgybe, did you pay attention during the training enough to know what a hostile work environment is?
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