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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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 Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:23 am Post subject: |
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GT--if you want to make a coherent argument, go ahead--with perhaps even some citations. I don't know anything about the Bergen report you have cited, and by no means have I claimed that 95% of warming is anthropogenic. One of the most amazing things I have seen is Glacier Bay, where glaciers advanced rapidly until about 1750 in the little ice age, and have steadily retreated. http://www.nps.gov/glba/learn/nature/glaciers.htm Tidewater glaciers are always melting at the sea, and forming by snowfall at the highest elevations. The bulk of the glacier retreat happened before global warming, and is almost certainly the result of both natural warming and less snowfall. The proper role of science is to examine the evidence and see if the current retreat is related to climate change. Our right wing Republicans forbid that research.
Glaciers have been in flux since the end of the last ice age, and the retreat of one doesn't prove global warming, nor does the advance of another prove that global warming is not occuring. But the wholesale retreat of 90% of the glaciers world-wide, including those at higher elevation, is another matter.
Take a little responsibility for what you post. You posted a diatribe from a bad source and bogus claims of doctoring satellite data by government scientists. That is paranoid denier bullshit. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Uh oh, new research reported today says that the oceans are warming at an accelerating rate. Let's see how paranoid windsurfers explain away acidic and warming oceans, |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Paranoid????? I think not! (Tickled pink, more like.)
It seems our original letter writer (Bergen 1922) has spawned an outburst of little known history. Today's paper follow up from a self proclaimed member of the (tongue in cheek humour) Global Warming Doubters Society.
Quote- Further to the report of hitherto unknown temperatures in the Arctic, a report presented by the president of the Royal Society to the Admiralty on November 20th 1817 reads-
' It will without doubt have come to your Lordships knowledge that a CONSIDERABLE CHANGE OF CLIMATE, inexplicable to us, must have taken place in the Circumpolar Regions, by which the severity of the cold that has for centuries past enclosed the seas in the high Northern latitude in an inpenetrable barrier of ice has been, during the last years greatly abated.'
No need to quote further - which simply adds that this new source of warmth will add to the benefit to mankind, and commerce etc etc.
Strange business this global warming. (Man made only, of course!) |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| GT--do yourself a favor, and see how much heat has been stored in the oceans since 1922. |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Mac- Ah, I detect a change of tactic. Now you are suggesting that our influence on planet wide warming (those model T Fords again) began in the 1922, and has steadily been continuing ever since. Even your graph of central England temps. showed a steady rise for a few years around that period as my anecdotal mother insisted , most adamantly by the 1960', by which time there was a downward trend again. (Model T Fords all on the scrap heap by then.  )
There will always be disagreement about cause of trends because some of us tend to see the other side of the coin. (Geology again.) What took the heat, the earth's normality, away from the oceans and atmosphere in the first place,during the frequent cooling spells?
Even supposing the current warming trend is not entirely natural, and we may be speeding it, isn't it inevitable and bound to continue (as in other geological periods) until a self regulatory balance is again reached (not fully understood by current science) as existed for much of geological time?
And no, as often stated earlier, some of can't accept the runaway (unregulated) greenhouse effect for the obvious reason that were such possible, it would long ago in earth's turbulent history have irreversibly occurred. It didn't, because it can't. Our distance from the sun is 'spot on.'
P.S. Will be unable to post for a while, since computer 'had it' and needs replacing. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Just appealing to your inner geologist to actually think about the physics of warming. Nobody with any background disputes the little ice age, or natural cycles. But the blips that occur--the anomolies--don't prove or disprove long term warming from anthropogenic sources. Rather, they call for careful numerical techniques that separate those phenomena from time series analyses, and research to try to understand causes. On the latter, this is interesting. Phil Plaitt in Discovery:
| Quote: | Over the course of several hundred years – most notably in the 17th and 18th centuries — winter temperatures in western Europe were much lower than normal. Glaciers came much farther south than they had before, and a famous painting shows people ice skating on the Thames river — which hasn’t been frozen since. The period is known as the Little Ice Age, and its cause has always been something of a mystery.
However, new research by scientists at the University of Colorado-Boulder (yay team!) may have pegged it: the LIA appears to have started abruptly in the late 13th century, between the years 1275 and 1300. Radiocarbon dating of plants from Baffin Island (north of the Hudson Bay in Canada) and sediment samples from a lake in Iceland indicate that there was a rapid onset of severe cooling at that time. It’s been thought that the cooling started around then, but it’s been hard to pin down until now.
More importantly, this narrows down the cause of the LIA: four tropical volcanoes erupted violently in that period. The ash would have darkened the atmosphere, letting slightly less sunlight down. Some of the gases emitted by volcanoes also cool the air. It seems clear these volcanoes are what triggered the Little Ice Age. But why did it last so long?
That may be due to what happened after the volcanoes erupted. Most likely, the warmer temperatures would have melted the north polar sea ice. This fresh water is less dense than salty water, so it would flow on top of the oceans, and wouldn’t have mixed well with the deeper water. This would have slowed the transport of heat from the equatorial waters back up north, cooling them further. That system is what maintained colder temperatures for so long. There were variations — the Ice Age was more of as series of pulses of temperature drops than one long period — but for centuries the heating of the Earth was disrupted in that region.
For a long time it’s been suspected that the Sun played a role here, too. During the period of 1645 to 1715 there were few or no sunspots, a time called the Maunder Minimum. Sunspots are dark, but they’re surrounded by a region, a rim, that emits strongly in the UV. These faculae, as they’re called, actually more than make up for the darker regions of the spots, so in reality sunspots add to the amount of light and heat the Earth receives, by a fraction of a percent. So an active Sun, it’s thought, may warm the Earth a teeny bit more.
However, this study showed that even if the Sun were less active, and therefore not warming the Earth as much, it would have had little effect. The local issues of volcanoes and the additional fresh water were enough to account for the Little Ice Age. The Sun may have played a role, but now it’s less likely to have been a major one.
And when did the cold period finally stop? In the 19th century, at the same time as the rise of the Industrial Revolution. We’re now at or exceeding temperatures of the Medieval Warm Period that existed right before the Little Ice Age.
This work is extremely important, of course, because it has a direct impact on understanding the Earth’s climate. Even more obviously, if you’ve been reading my blog for more than about ten seconds, is that a lot of climate change deniers like to point to the Sun as being the culprit in the rapid warming of the Earth over the past century. However, even before this study was announced, we knew that’s dead wrong: there is nothing to link the Sun to the current rise in temperatures.
I’ll note that the dreadful Daily Mail article I tore apart the other day spends a lot of its time linking the Sun to the Little Ice Age. I find it particularly noteworthy that this Colorado study — years in the making — was announced the same day that article came out. The contrast between careful scientific study and the befuddling assertions of a climate change denier shows the intellectual bankruptcy of the latter. And even then, the Colorado research was hardly needed to show the Daily Mail article was baloney; its own internal failings were apparent when it grossly twisted the results from the UK Met Office (the weather service for the UK).
Also, ironically, around the very same time I was posting my article, NASA released more news that the Sun cannot be responsible for global warming.
The big picture here, the thing to remember and take home, is that real scientists are doing real work to learn more about what’s really going on with our home planet. A lot of folks out there are making careers (and a ton of money) trying to sow doubt on that work, twisting it in any way they can imagine to make it seem like either the Earth’s not warming up (but it is) or that humans are not to blame (but we are). The more we study the past, the more we can understand the present and future, despite any attempts at obfuscation.
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MalibuGuru
Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 9299
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 2 months ago I was in Maui and the water was as warm as I'd ever felt it last week I was there again and it was as cold as I'd ever felt it. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:28 am Post subject: |
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"We simply cannot afford to allow the corporate greed of the coal, oil and gas industries to determine the future of humanity,” DiCaprio said Tuesday. Enough is enough. You know better. The world knows better. History will place the blame for this devastation squarely at their feet,” DiCaprio said. He argued against coal mining, oil drilling and the like, saying: “Climate change cannot be stopped unless fossil fuels are left in the ground.”
It wasn't clear whether he made these remarks from the 200 foot yacht in St. Bart's or from a private jet. Yet another persuasive voice. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| There is an old saying lawyers use. When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When the law is on your side, argue the law. When neither is on yor side, bang the table. Pick a nit and then pound thetable. Yawn. |
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J64TWB
Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Gybe, I don't have time to go into it now but pick another Hollywood A lister to pick on. My brother was deputy administrater of water (senate approved) in charge of every drop of water in USA.
Leo gave him 1 million for his new organization. Basically they are preserving large chunks of the Pacific to fishing exploits by creating no fishing zones within territorial waters of large island chains. In effect preserving thousands, make that millions. of sq. Miles.
Leo has never even met him. Oceans5.org |
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