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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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 Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| mrgybe wrote: |
It's a question of priorities. About 1000 well heeled tourists a year visit ANWR. I'm sure every one of them wants the place to themselves so that they can commune with nature. Locking up billions of barrels of oil that would improve the country's energy security and lower prices for everyone, is too high a price to pay for inner peace of this tiny number of privileged people in my view. If it was spectacular like the Grand Canyon, fine. It is not. It is flat, rather uninteresting and downright barren in winter. |
Also,
| Quote: | | I'm sure you are smart enough to figure out that the huge numbers of people in the UK bemoaning the loss of large areas of pristine countryside, are not suggesting that drilling rigs and other petroleum facilities cover that countryside in place of windmill farms. It is ironic that the green lobby so furiously opposes exploration in ANWAR, a desolate tundra visited by no one other than an occasional caribou that took a wrong turn, yet they are quite content to see ugly windmills cover some of the most picturesque countryside in the world. The footprint of windmill farms is huge compared to gas plants or nuclear plants that produce more energy, more reliably and more cheaply. |
Yes, it is about priorities and, apparently, subjective aesthetics. Promoters of fossil fuel development consistently exaggerate the visual impact of windmills while diminishing the effects of oil, gas and coal extraction.
I have no problem with drilling for oil in ANWR or gas wells in Utah, IF, and WHEN, we really need the source of oil or gas. What I do have a problem with is promotion of consumption by providing excess supply NOW. It is about restraint to me. We will need to plunder all of our lands, eventually, but why not do it in a manner that allows us to extend the lifespan of the resources, reclaim lands as we go, and reduce the rate of global warming?
The oil in ANWR and the gas in Utah belong to all of us (and our children and grandchildren) and not only for short term profits of corporations and stockholders. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | What I do have a problem with is promotion of consumption by providing excess supply NOW. |
But since it takes the government years to decades to act on damn near ANYTHING of this scale and political threat, the process and permissions must begin long before the need arises.
"Oh, but it takes 25 years to implement a nuclear plant, so that's out of the question."
"Well, we need to study Keystone before I can OK it."
"But there may be a downside to this radical "wheel" concept; I'll appoint a committee to study it until it falls in Hillary's lap. Until then, we'll just drag everything around on travois." |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | The oil in ANWR and the gas in Utah belong to all of us (and our children and grandchildren) and not only for short term profits of corporations and stockholders. |
I'm afraid the "oil companies want to take the people's resources" line doesn't withstand scrutiny. The oil and gas in the ground is worthless without the expertise and equipment to find, extract and manufacture it into useable products. On Federal lands, the government sets the lease, tax and royalty prices, the revenue from which accrues to the benefit of all taxpayers. If you have reason to believe that the price the government charges is inadequate, then write to your Congress people don't malign the oil companies. Over time, oil companies make a modest return relative to the risks they assume and the capital they employ, and relative to most other businesses. As for the timing, Iso is correct, it will be a decade or more before any oil comes to market even with a reasonable Administration. Right now we don't have that. The President's recent moves to "protect" vast areas of Alaska would likely cause the Tran Alaska Pipeline to be dismantled. But then, we can always go back, cap in hand, to the Saudis, or the Iraqis, or the Iranians. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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I challenge anyone that promotes development of oil in ANWR at this time, to tabulate how much oil we NEED to operate our economy compared to our emergency oil reserves and our current ability to produce oil domestically. If anyone can convince me we will NEED ANWR in ten years, I will change my opinion.
And, contrary to what you may think, I do not begrudge the oil companies their profits or minimize their contribution to the economy. I just do not believe they should be the stewards of the resource. Nor, do I believe that short term market forces should dictate the consumption of what should be a long term resource. We need to be smarter than that. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | If anyone can convince me we will NEED ANWR in ten years, I will change my opinion.. |
One such indicator is the rapid growth in area, power, and influence of radical Islam. If and when it takes possession of middle eastern oil -- and who's going to stop it now that the U.S. has forfeited the war? -- we may not even care that it has also become a nuclear power with zero moral constraints ... until, of course, they elect to use the latter in the lower 48 after using it to obliterate Israel without effective U.S. opposition. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | I challenge anyone that promotes development of oil in ANWR at this time, to tabulate how much oil we NEED to operate our economy compared to our emergency oil reserves and our current ability to produce oil domestically. If anyone can convince me we will NEED ANWR in ten years, I will change my opinion. |
Many credible sources estimate the demand for energy will increase by 30% over the next 25 years. Renewables will provide a small fraction of that increase. Nuclear may provide some, but recent history would suggest not much. Many existing large scale fields are declining all around the globe. Many of the countries holding major reserves are hostile to the US or are very unstable. It is a constant battle to find new sources to replace existing production let alone to cater for increased demand. Need more? Do you prefer a large scale turn to coal as in China and India?
In my view, all of that outweighs the NEEDS of a few wealthy individuals to roam undisturbed in an unspectacular wilderness. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Not the question.
I know world energy use will increase. You have brought up our energy security and the effect that OPEC could have on it. Oil consumption is dropping in this country. If development of ANWR really is about "security" can we make this oil for domestic use only? How about a restriction on ALL exportation of petroleum energy products?
We are capable of producing natural gas in quantities that we cannot use already. Trucks (20% of the oil market in the US) are beginning to convert to natural gas...a 12 cylinder ng powered engine will be available soon. Home heating oil is way down as natural gas distribution facilities are constructed. And, this year alone, fuel mileage increases are nearly 5%.
With this trend, you still see OIL energy needs, in this country, increase by 30%? I wonder if this is about corporate security and not national security.
BTW, oil produces only 1% of the electricity in this country...coal 39%. Wind already produces 4x as much electricity as oil. Drill all you want in the ANWR, you will not eliminate a single wind farm.
Last edited by coboardhead on Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| It's disappointing that you would join the other caterwaulers by suggesting that my only interest is personal profit, but there we are. Where you get your information that the US is a net exporter? We import nearly 10 million barrels p.d. and export around 3 million. That's a very large gap. Crude oil is a global market in which we compete with many others. The Chinese are buying up reserves wherever they can get their hands on them. India is importing large amounts of crude. It still isn't enough. So, they are both pumping out coal fired plants at an astonishing rate. As existing fields decline they will turn further to coal. So I ask again; is that what want? Or is it reasonable to make a tiny dent on a vast wilderness to mitigate some of that? |
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J64TWB
Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Gybe, for the first time in history, we are producing more than importing. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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You are correct. I should have said the US is soon "predicted" to reach net energy exporter status. I am not referring to oil alone. That, really is the issue. Oil will become less important as we reduce our consumption in transportation and begin to utilize more natural gas.
I was not referring to you with my comment on corporate security. I have plenty of oil stocks, so I have a vested interest in the profitability of oil companies. But, I still do not believe that our national interests are always best served by profits due to the exportation of natural resources or "free" world markets. |
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