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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2034

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Yes, SWC, but what is simply brushed aside and disregarded by environmentalists, and their incessant preaching and pontification is that we, in the UK, are tightly packed into our small island, with now over 60,000,000 people, and an out of control immigration problem from poorer countries. We are now one of the most densely populated countries in the world.

Perhaps if others of you, living in 'The Big Country' faced our critical shortage of space , and problems, you would take a more pragmatic view of what really matters!

Idealism is great, for those who have the living room, resources, and wealth in plentiful supply.


This is true for many things. Comparisons on energy use, health care and even gun control, between countries (or even states here) are inconclusive at best!
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5471

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--you are substantially overstating your criticisms of the middle of the road recommendations to global warming. And you are conflating debate overr the proper response to climate change, which is an arena where many viewpoints are valid, and there can be legitimate differences of opinions, with attempts by the carbon industry to deny that the climate is changing in response to CO2 emissions.

Middle of the road recommendations for responding to climate change involve eliminating subsidies for development and use of new carbon-based energy sources, modest subsidies to encourage technological development of sustainable energy sources, subsidies to encourage conservation--which is the most cost-effective source of new energy, and a carbon tax to capture the externalities associated with burning carbon-based fuels.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4310

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All climate regulation is designed by the investors in the Chicago Carbon Exchange to benefit the big insiders, politicians and their donors to your political party (the D's) Mac.

These policies have done nothing for the middle class who is broke and shivering in the cold winter of '14.

You need to re-evaluate who's side you're on. Because our country's middle class have become so poor under your president O, there may have already been deaths caused by lack of heating oil in the Midwest.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2739

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Because our country's middle class have become so poor under your president O...





Obama inherited that and other headaches from Dubya -- as you very well know.

.
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frederick23



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 482

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SB we are having a cold one for sure. 8th so far. Last year we had freakish heat. 3 weeks of 80 degrees had all the trees, lawns green and AC's on by early March. Last 5 or six winters very warm.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1391

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Objecting to middle of the road recommendations to global warming', my Aunt Fanny!!!!

Our country is;

a) setting the world standard in cutting CO2 emmissions, beyond even what the EU have now bactracked on doing. (Targets for 2030, and beyond.)

b) We spend billions on subsidies to wind farm proliferation. (40 of them built a year ago 1 mile out to sea off our windsurfing beach, now all out of action owing to damage to under sea cables, all of which must now be dredged up, and relaid with new!)

c) We have far in excess of your countries tax on fuel.

d) We are closing sound and necessary coal fired power stations to meet the said CO2 targets, and running into supply crisis territory as a result.

e) We send billions of pounds each year to 'poorer' countries in aid, to help them combat global warming. (As if! India has its own space program and they say they don't need our money, but they still take it of course,AND, they are building new coal fired power stations!!!)

A key member of our government (Eric Pickles) just yesterday stated that the billions we are sending in aid to poorer countries, to help combat global warming, will prevent floods in future! (LIES!!) (Even our Met Office contradicted the Prime minister when he originally trie to blame the floods on global warming. It is down to known weather patterns, and failure to dredge the channels, culverts, streams, and rivers of the flood plains.)

So what am I, and my countrymen, railing at? To be taken as gullible fools! But please, lecture US on what we are doing wrong!
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1391

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. I can't reply tonight. I'm off up to the moors, to feed the Unicorns!!
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1859
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:


Middle of the road recommendations for responding to climate change involve eliminating subsidies for development and use of new carbon-based energy sources, modest subsidies to encourage technological development of sustainable energy sources, subsidies to encourage conservation--which is the most cost-effective source of new energy, and a carbon tax to capture the externalities associated with burning carbon-based fuels.


I say eliminate all subsidies to all energy producing sources, no matter what kind of energy and/or fuel they are producing.
A carbon tax in large part, is to recover those subsidies previously granted to those carbon based providers.
Get rid of all those attempts of steering energy sources thru monitory manipulation, and let the free market take over with their own inventiveness for a market share, and you will have the desired results far quicker.
It would also create more jobs that have some honest money behind them, which is exactly what the middle class needs.

_________________
I don't drink the 'cool' aid, I drink tequila, it's more honest.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5471

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NW--for a change, I agree with most of what you have said. Jim Hansen has recommended a carbon tax that would be revenue neutral--it would replace other taxes that are more regressive, and thus would benefit those that might end up paying more for heating oil in the short term. http://www.carbontax.org/who-supports/scientists-and-economists/

It would readily pass Constitutional muster because it reflects the costs that the carbon industry passes along to others. It would not be dramatic, and would not stop use of carbon fuels--but begin to balance the playing field.

Given the decades of subsidies to the carbon industry, I continue to believe that encouraging energy conservation--insulation, mostly--and solar energy, through subsidies, is good policy. I don't think that those subsidies should be permanent, but I think we have already seen that what amounts to Federal funding for solar research has dramatically increased the cost-effectiveness of both passive solar heating and solar electricity generation.

GT--I cannot comment about what is going on in England--I don't know. I am interested in long term changes in the economy, and ways to make those changes with less subsidy to damaging behavior, and without huge economic dislocation. There is no question that the carbon industry funds the same kinds of liars that the cigarette industry did. In some cases they are the same "scientists."
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5471

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--in railing indiscriminately at all responses to global warming you are committing the same sins of hyperbole that you rail against. I might agree that some ideas about alternative energy--particularly large scale offshore wind farms or harnessing the tides--are foolish. But you are over the top with this comment--which happens to be in my wheelhouse:

Quote:
A key member of our government (Eric Pickles) just yesterday stated that the billions we are sending in aid to poorer countries, to help combat global warming, will prevent floods in future! (LIES!!) (Even our Met Office contradicted the Prime minister when he originally trie to blame the floods on global warming. It is down to known weather patterns, and failure to dredge the channels, culverts, streams, and rivers of the flood plains.)


Flooding from coastal storms, on dramatic display in England now, is a product both of water surface elevations in the sea and waves. Huge lows can create sea level anomalies of several feet--and often more. California had a long term increase in sea level of 3 feet during the 1982-3 winter which is well documented. Those sea levels reflect weather, not warming. The combination of such anomalies and tides are more dramatic than the impacts of climate change. Yet it is very clear that an additional 14 inches of sea level rise--which is the very least of the predictions that I have seen for sea level by 2050--will make your current coastal flooding worse--and more frequent.

Now as to your claim about dredging, which is about as rash. Standard practice in flood control engineering, in England and America, until perhaps the late 1980's, was to confine a stream in a trapezoidal channel and develop the lands on the floodplain. Flood control engineers didn't understand sediment dynamics, and often underestimated the amount of sediment that would deposit in those channels by ten or 100 fold--or more. They also assumed that the governmental entity which managed the channel would have the funds, and the permits, to dredge the channel. Alas, since the amount of sediment was much greater than predicted, and there was no cause of action against the long-dead flood control engineers that had made these mistakes, we have a series of flood control facilities that, even without sea level rise, provide protection for a ten year storm rather than a 100-year storm. In the case of a coastal storm that makes landfall and causes storm surges that were not anticipated in the design of the flood control facilities, the fault, again, is with the engineering assumptions. To make matters worse, such designs did not usually account for high tides and storm surges. In determining whether or not a river stays in channel during a flood event, it is downstream water levels--storm surges and sea level rise plus tides--that define the streams mechanics. Your efforts to blame the EPA are not persuasive. And sea level rise due to climate change will make sediment deposit in the channels even more rapidly, and the floods even more frequent.

Or, as some have suggested to BD--take a chill pill.
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