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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3753
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well spoken. With regards to GMO's, I am referring to the US, and the impact on our massive health care costs. I do not believe for a second that fresh healthy produce , and GMO-free foods are unavailable to those with little money. In fact, in my town, we are part of a huge organization that donates food to a farmers market for low income families. They are popping up all over the place....all over the country. But, at the same time we are battling big AG on many fronts. I believe the saying "you are what you eat", and I also believe what you eat and drink has a massive impact on your health, and your burden on the healthcare system.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5579

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno--there is a huge difference between thinking that we must be cautious about responding to climate change--and suggesting that warming might be good for us. You've again repeated talking points from the deniers who are making money out of transfering their costs to the general public.

Quote:
So my question - If man does everything possible to curtail co2 output, would it have an impact on global warming? Some - yes, but how much? No matter what the US does, unless China and a few other countries get on the bandwagon, little change will occur at the cost of many freedoms and huge expense. Some feel that we have to move ahead regardless of the cost and imposition on our freedoms, but I am not one of them, at least not yet.


You've again only looked at one portion of the cost equation, and you've assumed a loss of freedom rather than found one. California has been looking at what adapting to climate change will cost, and the cost is staggering. Protecting, or abandoning, real estate along our coastlines and bays will cost hundreds of billions, if not trillions. California currently obtains a major part of its water supply from the snow stored on the Sierra's and the slow release of that water as it melts. Replacing that storage is nearly impossible, and will have staggering costs because most of the better reservoir sites are already developed. In North Carolina the outer banks and most of the coastal cities are facing increased damages and destruction.

You are correct that the United States alone cannot solve the problem, and that we should be suspicious of snake oil sellers that swarm around any public program. Our goals should be twofold: first, capture the real costs in the price of carbon-based fossil fuels rather than transfering those costs to the public and future generations, and second, develop the technology to be able to replace fossil fuels with less damaging fuels, and save them for higher value users, which will continue for at least the lives of my children. Subsidies should be for proven cost-effective approaches like conservation, or to develop technology, with expiration dates on the subsidies.

Instead we have subsidies for carbon fuels--directly, and indirectly by letting them discharge contaminants into the air--particulates as well as CO2--because of deals cut in the vice-presidents office.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1548

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac said:
Quote:
You've again only looked at one portion of the cost equation, and you've assumed a loss of freedom rather than found one. California has been looking at what adapting to climate change will cost, and the cost is staggering. Protecting, or abandoning, real estate along our coastlines and bays will cost hundreds of billions, if not trillions. California currently obtains a major part of its water supply from the snow stored on the Sierra's and the slow release of that water as it melts. Replacing that storage is nearly impossible, and will have staggering costs because most of the better reservoir sites are already developed. In North Carolina the outer banks and most of the coastal cities are facing increased damages and destruction.


So you think spending billions and billions to reduce co2 is a worthwhile endeavor, with the possibility that it will do nothing or very little to stop global warming?

If I were you, I wouldn't use California as an example for anything other than what not to do. I grew up there and some of my family are still there. California will look like Cyprus pretty soon and there is no EU to bail them out.

By the way, the numbers in my hypothesis were just numbers to make a point and nothing more, I thought you could figure that out.

The big issue with all of this is that today's liberals seem to think that government must intercede in our lives because we aren't capable to making good choices (or at least the choices they think we should be making). Some intervention is good and necessary, but too much and we become a socialist nation. Way too many tendencies in that direction in the last 5 years to suit me.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3753
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"California will look like Cyprus soon"

About as clueless a comment as Ive ever seen, and I've read thousands of ISO's, so its pretty clueless.

Technoo, you've outdone yourself.
If you want to understand what went wrong in Cyprus, this is a great read....remember...if you lie with dogs, you're gonna get fleas.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-cyprus-bailout-reveals-german-fears-of-tax-havens-a-891063.html
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5579

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not even remotely what I said:

Quote:
So you think spending billions and billions to reduce co2 is a worthwhile endeavor, with the possibility that it will do nothing or very little to stop global warming?



Techno is, again, saying that if we can't solve the problem we should wring our hands and let the carbon companies get away with murder. Literally. What I said is that we shouldn't try to pretend away the trillions that it will cost us to clean up the mess that it is too late to stop. That is what it is costing.

Of course, in California--and in North Carolina--it is the government that provides for water to come out when you turn on your tap, and for flood control. Certainly seem suspiciously socialist to me. Let's privatize those roads, and parks, and beaches, so we can gouge windsurfers.

You might actually try reading some primary literature instead of the Drudge report. I have National Academy of Science's papers going back to the 1980's about global warming.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2768

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
... government must intercede in our lives because we aren't capable to making good choices (or at least the choices they think we should be making)...

There's an enormous mountain of evidence that precisely that is true.
.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes indeed!

But now that our government considers me to be a feeble old geezer who's away with the fairies (er, senile Rolling Eyes ) I do take exception to being informed that I should wrap up well in cold weather, eat five a day, (boiled babies perhaps?) and only venture outside when strictly necessary.

Us oldies get a 250 free government gift each Winter (oh, the perils of socialism) to help us keep warm. It buys me a new wetsuit! ( Razz )
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3538

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do folks here understand that Cyprus allowed itself to become a dump for criminals and tax avoidance Russians to hide their money and the gov. Is thinking of taxing those deposits? Since they created the problem by using this weak little country for churning laundry money?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5579

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC--well, it is off topic. But the alternative to what is being proposed is the failure of the banks, with the government too high a credit risk to be able to bail them out. At that point, taxing the bigger deposits by 10% is just a way for everyone to get a haircut. Without that, those who can get their money out before the bank fails are whole, everyone else gets bupkis.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1548

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggs said:
Quote:
"California will look like Cyprus soon"

About as clueless a comment as Ive ever seen, and I've read thousands of ISO's, so its pretty clueless.


I guess a little sarcasm or overstating a point to make a point isn't a good idea. In the most simplified terms, my point was/is - California isn't a good example of how to solve problems, including financial as Mac suggested.

Reducing co2 is fine, but if we spend billions to do it and there is no impact on global warming, then what? Is it the co2 or is it a natural cycle that is warming the planet? Fully understand the problem before you try to solve it makes sense to me.
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