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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14001

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
I know a bunch of guys who haven't paid their mortgages in over 3 years. Why? Seems like Bush2 to me.

Bush2 loudly and repeatedly objected to, warned against, and tried to get the Congress to stop the mortgage madness.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno...Where did Mac mention that employment numbers were great now? What I took away from his post was that the stimulus added jobs, not cured unemployment completely. The losses, obviously, would have been higher without the stimulus. Now, the stimulus is over, and we have not really lost the stimulus jobs. Are we back yet? No. This is especially obvious in the construction industry. The bubble was, well, a bubble. Lots of unsustainable jobs in the construction of over-priced houses paid for with play money.

It seems like we want it both ways. The recession caused state and local government to shed hundreds of thousands of jobs due to dropping revenues. This reduced the size of government, however, it increased the rate of unemployment too.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5091

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The world's most arrogant guy--and apologist for the carbon industry--just can't seem to read. I said I don't rely on models to predict the future, not that I don't trust the data. But mrgybe's buddies have tried to make sure that we don't collect data. What a piece of work!

CB--thanks for your observations. Nowhere did I say that we have recovered from the 16 trillion in Republican policy losses. In fact, I said the stimulus at aboiut $800 billion was a drop in the bucket. But there has been a substantial recovery, despite Republican efforts to slow growth and defeat Obama. Real patriots.

So techno, do they still believe that there is no relationship between tobacco and cancer there in North Carolina? Them scientists, they keep trying to ruin all the fun.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5091

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to laugh--"Mac's numbers are meaningless." Well, the numbers come from the sources I indicated, and the point they make is that in 2013, after five tough years, Federal revenues are up, and outlays for the social net are down. The stimulus had something (a little) to do with this, the bank bailout a lot, and time the most. What part of the down turn was just panic has been weathered, and housing is going up again and construction jobs are up. But if you need to have a scenario where you blame everything on Obama then you can always invent your own reality.

Iso's post is pure BS. Chris Cox, Bush's choice for SEC, ignored all signs of difficulty and refused to excercise the small amount of discretion he had been left in the repeal of Glass Steagal. Those who forget the lessons of history are bound to repeat it. So watch his advice on matters of gold and stock--and do the opposite.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac said:
Quote:
So techno, do they still believe that there is no relationship between tobacco and cancer there in North Carolina? Them scientists, they keep trying to ruin all the fun.


I am not sure why this surfaced, but living in NC has nothing to do with the cause and effect of smoking. However, If folks want to smoke or drink Big Gulps or ride without helmets, etc., good for them. If they want to kill themselves prematurely, so be it, they should have the choice. The process of natural selection has its benefits.

And before everyone gets on the band wagon about the potential medical costs of the above poor choices, I would add one thing that is always ignored in the naysayers spin. Dying prematurely of lung cancer or heart disease because of smoking will generate excessive medical costs for sure, but what if that person didn't smoke and lived another 30 years and then died. What about the medical costs of the additional 30 years of life and then dying of cancer or heart disease? No one seems to include this possibility in their efforts to control our choices. It's possible that dying prematurely would save on overall medical costs. Die early and it's likely that private insurance will cover the costs (or possibly Medicaid). Die late and it WILL be Medicare.

And to be on topic, all this hot air is adding to global warming, at least that's what the left would say.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5091

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not surprised you missed the point techno:

Quote:
living in NC has nothing to do with the cause and effect of smoking


Well no, North Carolina still grows a lot of tobacco. The point is that the tobacco companies, to maintain sales of their hazardous product, hired a bunch of "scientists" to publish papers (not peer reviewed, of course) that argued that smoking did not cause cancer. They supressed information that didn't agree with their conclusions, and when caught, paid billions in damages.

Big oil hired some of these same "scientists" to deny any relationship between carbon dioxide emissions and climate change. Funny how those whose interest is in protecting their profits and avoiding liability for the damages they cause always seem to argue about personal freedom--while supressing information about the impacts.

Also funny how so many folks from the south always hate on Obama, with stories that are based on fabrications. What could this be?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14001

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
What I took away from his post was that the stimulus added jobs, not cured unemployment completely. The losses, obviously, would have been higher without the stimulus. Now, the stimulus is over, and we have not really lost the stimulus jobs.

"Not really lost the stimulus jobs" is a euphemism for "lost most of the stimulus jobs.

The 1.8 to 3.3M jobs created by the stimulus cost $831 billion dollars, taken by force from one group and paid to another in violation of the Constitution ("the greater good" means, according to the Supreme Court, that everyone, not just some subset, must benefit) to fund mostly very short-lived jobs (largely from weeks to months) at an average cost of 6 to 7 figures. Source: CBO. In greater detail, from several sources quoting the CBO analysis of the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act (the job stimulus bill):

CBO estimates that ARRA’s policies had the following effects in the first quarter of calendar year 2012 compared with what would have occurred otherwise:

– They raised real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product (GDP) by between 0.1 percent and 1.0 percent,

– They lowered the unemployment rate by between 0.1 percentage points and 0.8 percentage points,

– They increased the number of people employed by between 0.2 million and 1.5 million,

– They increased the number of full-time-equivalent jobs by 0.3 million to 1.9 million. (Increases in FTE jobs include shifts from part-time to full-time work or overtime and are thus generally larger than increases in the number of employed workers.)

Without the stimulus, there would be anywhere from 200,000 to 1.5 million fewer people employed right now? That means the current cost-per-job created is somewhere between $4.1 million and $540,000.

Furthermore, quoting from the CBO analysis of the Recovery Act at
http://tinyurl.com/86g8e7j
"ARRA’s Long-Run Effects:
In contrast to its positive near-term macroeconomic
effects, ARRA will reduce output slightly in the long run,
CBO estimates—by between zero and 0.2 percent after
2016. But CBO expects that the legislation will have no
long-term effects on employment because the U.S. econ-
omy will have a high rate of use of its labor resources in
the long run.

ARRA’s long-run impact on the economy will stem pri-
marily from the resulting increase in government debt
."

On top of all that, as of the last government figures we saw just a few months ago, the total number of people with jobs has been lower every day Obama has been in office than it was the last day of Bush's presidency. despite huge surge in the potential labor force. Source: Democratic Party figures based on BLS data. From CNN Factcheck: The Obama Part-Time Economy; More people have left the work force than jobs have been created since January 2010 according to Democrats. More people have given up hope than jobs have been created. In round DNC/BLS numbers, Obama's claim of 4.5M new jobs ignores the 4.5M who just frigging quit looking.

That's why they call it BSNBC.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac said,

Quote:
Well no, North Carolina still grows a lot of tobacco. The point is that the tobacco companies, to maintain sales of their hazardous product, hired a bunch of "scientists" to publish papers (not peer reviewed, of course) that argued that smoking did not cause cancer.


I guess the logical deduction is that sugar companies, to maintain sales of their hazardous product will hire scientists to publish papers (not peer reviewed, of course) to argue that sugar does not lead to obesity and death.

All things in excess will eventually kill you, even water. It's not news anymore.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5091

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha, but fraud is still a crime.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5091

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further examples of flawed logic from libertarians who just don't think things through:

Quote:
I guess the logical deduction is that sugar companies, to maintain sales of their hazardous product will hire scientists to publish papers (not peer reviewed, of course) to argue that sugar does not lead to obesity and death.

All things in excess will eventually kill you, even water. It's not news anymore.


Well, the problem with this is that it is not correct. There is no safe level of exposure to tobacco smoke or to diesel particulates. It isn't a matter of excess, some things are toxic but most things aren't.

The example of water is specious reasoning. It would take 20 glasses of water, drunk pretty quickly, to achieve a fatal dose. It is not the water that is toxic, it is the dilution of electrolytes.

Sugar is, of course, a nutrient. Perhaps tobacco is a nutrient in North Carolina?
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