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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5365

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--the thing that I find amusing is that the same people who profess to not trust the government to do anything (and they get to their windsurfing spot how?) seem to trust the oil companies as having their best interest at heart. And to practice honesty in their communication strategies. Aided by those who they pay for advertisement.

The Who said, "won't get fooled again."
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3615
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey rightys - ISO, gybe , NW 30, bard, please take your negative gobbledygook elsewhere, I'm too busy making hay , and I'm afraid your tiresome rants might eventually affect me .
Thanks
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2726

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there is anything that I said that is gobbledygook please quote it and tell me why it is nonsense.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1493

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From mac:
Quote:
Techno--let me quote your point:
Quote:
everyone but the government figured out how to tighten up their budgets


Mac, now that I am "full of shit", I will try to expand on my point that apparently went over your head, or that you just choose to ignore and instead cherry pick little details to avoid the real issue.

Real families, business and corporations live and die by the balance sheet. Our federal government, at least the liberal side has no interest in eliminating the red ink, which will ultimately lead to a national crisis and chaos - in my opinion. As you said, the government did and continues to make cuts, but this time it's not by their efforts to cut the red ink (never has been), but by their stubbornness (remember, stubbornness cuts two ways). As long as the left thinks it can succeed by increasing taxes, plus printing and borrowing money without addressing the spending issue, we will be at a road block until the electorate cleans house, one way or the other.

mrgybe, anything we say that the left disagrees with is nonsense and gobbledygook.

mac, I don't think anyone here from the right believes or has ever said "profess to not trust the government to do anything". Just more made up facts from the left, or one might say "nonsense and gobbledygook".
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3615
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr G -suggesting people who dont agree with you live in an alternate universe is gobblygook, sorry. The markets dont agree with you.
Techno, please. Corp balance sheets are lean because we have taken over three TR in debt and moved it to the Fed, replacing the bad assets on the bank balance sheets with treasuries. And because of the FED ZIRP, US corps have refincanced their way to profitabilty. There are hundreds of companies that were on their death beds , that are now prospering....think Pier One, Dollar Thrifty, Sirius.etc etc.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1960

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Due to environmental rules, the Four Corners Power Plant near me will be decomissioning three of the five units. It is unknown how this will affect MY heated windsurfing lake adjacent to the plant (4.6 yesterday). Damn environment!
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2705

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:

mrgybe, anything we say that the left disagrees with is nonsense and gobbledygook.

That is obviously nonsense and gobbledygook.
.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5365

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we are going to continue to debate budget policy in this thread, here goes.

Techno said:

Quote:
we clearly aren't anywhere close to where we were in 2006-07.


Yes, and the losses were clearly related to the housing bubble inflated by GOP policies.

Quote:
U.S. household wealth fell by about $16.4 trillion of net worth from its peak in spring 2007, about six months before the start of the recession, to when things hit bottom in the first quarter of 2009, according to figures from the Federal Reserve.


From http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/09/news/economy/household_wealth/index.htm

Techno said further:

Quote:
The only real question is where would we be now if we hadn't had the stimulus? I really don't know, but I am not convinced that it was the answer.


The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office’s analysis can be found here: http://www.cbo.gov/publication/21671

Their conclusion was that the stimulus increased the number of jobs by between 1.4 and 3.3 million. Certainly the stimulus was a drop in the bucket compared to the collapse of the bubble, but conservatives keep trying to forget that was a result of Republican deregulation.

Techno said:

Quote:
everyone but the government figured out how to tighten up their budgets in order to survive


This is patently wrong. The total number of government employees fell by over 500,000—comparable to the losses in the financial and real estate sectors. The number of Federal government employees increased, but by a fairly small amount. Here’s a few facts for the fact challenged, from CNN:

Quote:
The number of federal employees grew by 123,000, or 6.2%, under President Obama, according to the White House's Office of Management and Budget.
Much of the hiring increases came in the departments of homeland security, justice, veterans and defense.
The federal payroll has been expanding since President Bush took office, after declining during the Clinton administration. But it's still a tad smaller than it was in 1992, said Craig Jennings, a federal budget expert at the progressive think tank OMB Watch.


After being rebutted techno now states:

Quote:
the government did and continues to make cuts, but this time it's not by their efforts to cut the red ink (never has been), but by their stubbornness


I have no idea what that means. Techno doesn’t seem to understand that Congress establishes programs, not the President, and the President implements those programs within what areas of discretion Congress may have granted him.

In the big picture, it is important to recognize that Federal revenues dropped dramatically in the recession. Here are facts about total Federal revenue from 2007 on:

2007 $2.57 trillion
2008 $2.52 trillion
2009 $2.11 trillion
2010 $2.16 trillion
2011 $2.3 trillion
2012 $2.47 trillion (est)
2013 $2.9 trillion (est)

As the economic recovery continues, the amount of Federal revenue increases, and Federal outlays for unemployment and social safety net payments goes down. These changes are far more dramatic than the cuts proposed in the sequester.

Facts are so inconvenient, let's watch Faux news so we don't have to be bothered with them.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2705

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:

After being rebutted techno now states:

Quote:
the government did and continues to make cuts, but this time it's not by their efforts to cut the red ink (never has been), but by their stubbornness


I have no idea what that means. Techno doesn’t seem to understand that Congress establishes programs, not the President, and the President implements those programs within what areas of discretion Congress may have granted him.

Translation: "No matter what actually happened with the government, I'll find some aspect of it somewhere to distort so that I can express my anger and outrage in order to snivel, snarl, denigrate, hate, disrespect, and otherwise piss all over Obama -- even if he had nothing to do with it. Don't confuse my narrative by using facts, because facts aren't factual unless they come from Fox."
.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5365

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those not troubled by facts, there is a fascinating graphic about debt here: http://visual.ly/united-states-debt-percentage-gdp-1940-2012

I do think that debt matters, I thought so when Bush II began to run it up and made deficits structural. I think it is important to distinguish (and think well enough to distinguish) between structural sources of debt and non-structural sources of debt. The unchecked growth of the military, the tax cuts that originated under Bush and were made permanent under Obama, and future medical costs are all structural sources of debt--they need fixing. It is a myth that it is politically feasible to do so without new revene, or without cuts to Medicare and the military. When businesses that use Federally funded infrastructure and services are paying no taxes, and getting back subsidies, there is room for tax increases.

What is interesting about the debt to GDP chart is that it was at its long term low under Carter, at 32%, and started to rise under Reagan and Bush I. Clinton headed it back down, Bush II and Obama headed it back up. But now it has become partisan--and those facts are so pesky.

How many Republicans want to bring Jimmy Carter back?
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