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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Statement yesterday from governor of The Bank of England.

'The recovery is in sight!'
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4673

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keynsian spending seems to have brought us out of the severe recession caused by Republican de-regulation and gambling policies. But when you only get your facts from Fox, you actually don't have any facts.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1364

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac said:
Quote:
Keynsian spending seems to have brought us out of the severe recession caused by Republican de-regulation and gambling policies.

I am glad you used "seems" since we clearly aren't anywhere close to where we were in 2006-07. The vast number of those still out of work would not agree with you. The only real question is where would we be now if we hadn't had the stimulus? I really don't know, but I am not convinced that it was the answer. What did happen is that everyone but the government figured out how to tighten up their budgets in order to survive, which for many has generated new profits because of more efficient operations.

Why is the government so slow to learn?
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3035

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is our fault. We are the teachers. When Congress has a 8% approval rating and we re elect nearly all of them we are sending a clear message to continue with what you are doing.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4673

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh techno, you are so sad. So devoid of facts. The Federal, state, and local governments shed jobs like a dog in the spring. You might try consulting a few facts, try this: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3252

Job losses were greatest, in the private sector, in the area of the economy that had been running on funny money in the real estate bubble. Construction lost close to one million jobs, the auto industry lost about 300,000, and the finance and real estate sector lost about 500,000 jobs. All directly due to allowing gambling by banks--and squashing regulation of funny business by Bush's man at the SEC.

The loss of government jobs hindered recovery, and limiting those losses was one of the goals of the stimulus. At all levels, government had lost 580,000 jobs by mid-year 2012. We can see the results in, for example, soldiers trying to get benefits from the VA--which has fewer employees than it used to have, but far more veterans.

It is interesting to look a little closer at the causes of the recession, and use the Wall Street Journal as a source. They note here: http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-06-08/commentary/32103077_1_debt-private-sector-slowest-pace

Quote:
As much as we hear politicians, pundits, tea-party patriots and the Congressional Budget Office obsessing about government debt, it was excessive private debt — not public debt — that caused the 2008 financial meltdown. And it was private debt — some of it since transferred to the public — that lies behind the current European debt crisis. (Greece is unique in having a public sector that ran up spending while its private sector is rather conservative.)

As the political rhetoric about the federal deficit has heated up, we’ve lost sight of the progress that’s been made in bringing total debt back under control. The U.S. is actually doing much better than you’d think if you just listened to the conventional fears about how we’re rushing headlong into a debt Armageddon.


You are entitled to your own opinion--but not your own set of facts. Venture out of the bubble, try reality and science.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2449

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the rose tinted glasses crowd who deal in the reality of an alternate universe here are a couple of real facts:

- in fiscal 2011 the cost to service US debt was $454billion......the highest ever despite historically low interest rates.
- if rates on US debt return to the historical average, debt servicing cost will more than double. If rates return to the halcyon days of Jimmy Carter, it will quadruple.
- we are on track to reach $20 Trillion in debt by the end of this President's term. Yet he and his followers are seem blissfully unconcerned by this looming tidal wave as evidenced by the Senate budget and the President's public comments.

And what have we have received in return for this massive anchor around the necks of our offspring? Persistently high unemployment, a huge increase in those dependent upon government assistance and incredibly weak growth for approaching five years. Sad indeed.

Erskine Bowles has called the nation's compound interest burden one of the biggest long-term challenges facing the United States. "We'll be spending over $1 trillion a year on interest by 2020.[He's assuming rates remain low] That's $1 trillion we can't spend to educate our kids or to replace our badly worn-out infrastructure. What makes it doubly bad is that trillion will be spent principally in Asia, because that's where our debt is."

No amount of finger pointing is going to solve this problem. Neither will closing White House tours. We need some real leadership here. I'm not optimistic.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13315

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
we clearly aren't anywhere close to where we were in 2006-07. ... where would we be now if we hadn't had the stimulus? ... I am not convinced that it was the answer.

Neither are most people whose knowledge, insight, and analysis have enabled them to get filthy rich off their ken and predictions. Most of those tried and proven experts say we'd have been better off in the long run letting Darwin, rather than politicians, choose the winners. When Soros, Jim Rogers, Paulson, Buffett, the Weidemers, the heads of the world's biggest funds and fund companies and banks, etc. are saying "RUN FOR THE HILLS" as they sell off billions of shares in the markets and advise us to do the same, I'm payin' attention. They know the market topped out in 2000 in real dollars, that adjusted for inflation it has been in decline ever since, and that printing play money to cover the debt always has and always will lead to collapse, and they all heard Obama's lines, accurately paraphrased for maximum comprehension:
1. Screw the economy; it's about taking money at gunpoint from those who earn it and giving it to those who don't (2008 ABC debate).
2. Everybody knows you don't raise taxes during a bad economy.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13315

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
I'm not optimistic.

Neither are men whose economic brilliance has enabled them to earn a thousand times more money than any of us. In fact, many of them are so extremely pessimistic that they're shouting it from the rooftops in an attempt to penetrate the self-serving Wall Street and Obamedia hype to the contrary.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 3631

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac, food stamp usage has doubled. Number of employed people falling. Wages falling. Welfare growing. Poor growing. You can only drink so much koolaid.

And yesterday, Hagel in response to N Korean nuclear threats says we desperately need more nuclear defense bases on the west coast. However, he needs EPA approval. We will have to wait.

Either we need them or we don't. Hagel and Obama are horrible leaders who might gamble with a nuclear detonation in Seattle so the EPA can waive their hand. Bullshit.....I assume we really don't need them.

The only good thing happening in the economy is asset inflation caused by a monetary system on steroids. The middle class is being devastated. Wages are falling.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5481

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe, given the position that our deficit and debt situations are so dire that they threaten the well being of the nation, are you supportive of increasing tax revenue as an important avenue to help pay down our debt obligations?

One wonders, as bad as many in the Republican party believe our debt problem is, why are they so vehemently against any efforts to raise revenues through higher taxation? I have no doubt that we can afford it, and with their complete control over the House of Representatives and the government purse, they could easily require that any new revenues generated through increased taxation be applied directly to bringing down our debt. Moreover, given the fact that tax rates have been at historically low levels for better than a decade, how can the Republicans irresponsibly ignore such an obvious path to help craft a balanced solution to our problems. Certainly, you can't cut your way to prosperity. Leadership requires tough decisions, and that means everything must be on the table. Do Republicans have what it takes?


Last edited by swchandler on Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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