Afghanistan, the war that will not go away

mac · Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 3358

6 million Vietnamese died in the second anti-Imperial war in Vietnam, and about 55,000 US soldiers. And now Walter Cronkite is responsible? As their general said in "The Fog of War," they'd have fought us forever. Now the Middle East is very different from Vietnam in a lot of ways, most particularly the presence and proselytization of a violent sect of Islam. But if Isobars didn't learn the fundamental lesson of anti-Imperialism, how will he ever understand the degree to which the presence of invaders is the main fuel supporting the current conflagration?

tradewinds · Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Posts: 112

Very interesting points feuser. I haven’t studied the religion – only pick up what I hear from the news so there’s a lot I don’t know.

But even if Islam is not hierarchical to the extent the Catholic religion is as in priests to bishops to archbishops to the Pope- I have heard that the local Imam (or whatever else they are named in different areas) have a huge influence on their community.

So are you saying that there is a lot of pressure for the Islamic leaders to lean toward radical/ strict Islamic rule and not favor any Western/modern ways? (is that what you mean by Islam is in turmoil--moderates hanging by a thread—pressure from West further destabilizes the situation” (destabilizes the moderates?) ?)

And that some of that is due to Bush’s asinine abuse of power to use 9/11 as an excuse to finally try to gain more power in the oil rich Middle East-ie:war?

So if there is no or little hierarchy- what are these Imams afraid of? Who do they have to answer to? Why can’t they be more vocal about being anti “jihad”/ anti-violent/ and in support of peace? ESPECIALLY the ones in the US?

It just seems to me that there should be more vocalizing from Islamists and Muslims that they are against terrorism-esp. from the leaders. So I disagree with you that we shouldn’t expect them to address the “fringe” of their religion. Because there are more and more people joining that “fringe” and they are doing it in the name of that religion. So who is going to claim what the religion stands for? Only the fringe? Or the “leaders?

I am perplexed that you said “all islamic officials or leaders - even the Taliban - were unified in the condemnation of the crime that had been perpetrated”. Seriously? The Taliban? and all Islamic officials? That’s not what I remember about the reaction after 9/11. But I was only watching the mainstream news at that time. But even so- I do find that doubtful. But I agree with you that the war exacerbated ill feelings toward the US by many Muslims (Islamists?) in the Middle East (anger mostly due to Palestine???).

If the leaders and Muslims and Islamists don’t feel a need to speak out against terrorism and the goal of making the whole world Muslim… and killing Americans – then I don’t think they should be granted “no profiling” when it comes to entering the US, flying into and within the US, and in all aspects of living in the US ... I think we SHOULD profile. It just makes sense. I’m sorry but political correctness is just insane when it comes to who comes into the US and who is here already. It’s so insane that I get the full pat down 3 times in a year going from OAK to PDX with an Irish name and on a route I have taken about 4 times a year for 20 years and never rent a car…. (therefore I’m obviously going to visit people- any lame brain could figure that out. and how many Irish people publicly vow to kill Americans?)… and yet time and time again they don’t do better background checks on a group of which some publicly state they want to kill Americans… I’m sorry I know it’s not PC—all I’m saying is do better investigating where it makes sense. Americans are becoming a bunch of wooses with their PC’ness. Notice it was a non-Amercian that flung over a bunch of rows to get to the Nigerian guy with the explosives? I want to be in planes with some non-Americans from now on. And our Homeland Security whatever she is—“everything happened like it’s suppose to”?!!!!!!! I want my tax money that pays for homeland security back! ‘Cause if the best they can do is count on people like the Netherlands guy to hop over a bunch of rows to take down a terrorist then I’m gonna spend my homeland security tax money on my own personal Netherlands guy as a body guard. !

Seriously- it shouldn’t be taken personally- it should just be accepted that due to the current circumstances there will be closer investigating on certain groups until things are different. Nothing personal for the masses that are not terrorists- and they want to be safe too. I don’t see why that is so wrong.

Lastly- my heart goes out to the Iranians! I pray for the many brave progressives! That government is bad news. I hope Obama does a great job on this one. Like he needs another HUGE important challenge!

tradewinds · Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Posts: 112

Isobars- I wish/can only hope you are correct about the surge being a success. But I think that the minute we pull out- whether it me now or in 5 years from now there will be chaos and a growth of radical Islamism/Muslimism. I think that there is something about that culture that will cont. to breed radicalism. And I think it has alot to do with the religion being extremely patriarchical. And I don't think men are not gonna give up their patriarchy. They like it too much. It is too comfortable. Again- I know that's simplistic. But I do hope that you are correct Isobars- I really do. Maybe it will go the way you suggest- more control over the extremists to the point that the locals can keep it under control after we leave and hopefully then a slacking off of the patriarchical society. I know they claim more girls are in school now. But is that just 'cause of us being there? Will that hold after we leave? Power is just such an addictive drug and I have a feeling too many men over there are too addicted.
I also wish you were right about helping out the Iranians. It would be awesome if we could just send CIA over there to off that a hole. But I agree with mac that overall it's better to let the people deal with their own country. I think engagement works better in the long run. To an extent. There is a point when you have to give up on that though and then bring out the tough guns like you say.

tradewinds · Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Posts: 112

But not the same CIA that fell for this!: (My government is such an embaressment!)

"But a new report in the latest issue of Playboy magazine by investigative journalist Aram Roston shows that the source was a man who convinced the Bush White House, the CIA, the Navy, Special Forces Command, the Air Force, and the Senate Intelligence Committee that the TV network Al Jazeera was transmitting secret messages to al-Qaeda sleepers. Dennis Montgomery operated a small software company out of Nevada. He said he could predict terrorist attacks by decrypting secret bar codes hidden in Al Jazeera’s broadcast. The Bush administration relied on Montgomery for years to determine when to increase the terror threat level..."

"It was one of the most bizarre intelligence operations I’ve ever heard of. A man who was not necessarily a scientist, but he was a self-proclaimed scientist and a self-proclaimed inventor, he claimed he had found these secret messages. He basically—he claimed he decoded al-Qaeda’s secret communications to sleeper terrorists around the world. And he was doing this in this warehouse in Nevada on his computer...

People in the administration took him seriously, and people in the intelligence services took him seriously. Not everybody...

His financier was a former aide of the former right-hand man to Michael Milken, the disgraced junk bond king, of all things.

AMY GOODMAN: And how much money did he get?
ARAM ROSTON: No one knows for sure. It looks like his companies, over the years, have received $30, $40 million, $30 to $40 million.
AMY GOODMAN: From the US government?
ARAM ROSTON: Yeah. "

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/28/the_man_who_conned_the_pentagon

I want my portion of tax money that paid the 30-40 million to these con men back!!! Like we didn't get ripped off enough by Mike Milken already!

isobars · Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 11471

swchandler · Joined: 08 Nov 1993 Posts: 4609

"The rest is up to relentless, powerful global pressure on radical Islamic terrorists, led by the most powerful man and military in the world. Even after that man's lack of comprehension of that fact costs many thousands more American civilian lives, a few million idiots who care only about a free ride through life -- and the three remaining Americans who still deny the threat exists -- will still vote for him."

What kind of nonsense is this?

This is why I have highlighted isobars lack of sophistication, particularly in his delivery. The continued rabid and insulting views of our president, and the leaders in Congress, is clearly off the mark. He should be ashamed. Although leaders in our government can be criticized for their actions on either side of the aisle, I would hope for better than I'm seeing from the bombastic neo-conservative right. The fact that isobars is "parroting" the extremism from angry and hateful factions shows up like a terribly sore thumb.

What does that mean? isobars is scoring zero points here. Still though, repeatedly he's not getting the picture. I'm not expecting that he would see or appreciate our side of American values and goals, to include the myriad of actions presently being taken by our leaders, but the fact that he's not getting any smarter in his diatribes here reflects poorly on his understanding of the audience here. Without a doubt, he can't stand back and see himself as others do. Instead, any strong opposition to his simplistic view of the world is ultimately censored. This guy should be living in Iran, or some other mixed up place where censorship is a central governmental strategy is designed to keep freedom away. Then maybe, just maybe, he'd begin to see the picture.

feuser · Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 1278

joew · Joined: 18 Jul 1999 Posts: 103

Some random responses: Someone forgot to mention that the crotch bombers handlers, were two Saudi national former Gitmo detainees, released by the Bush administration to a Saudi reeducation program, which apparently is as Mickey Mouse as any thing else done in that country without the the direct supervision of foreign nationals on the payroll (sad but true). When a Dutch cartoonist parodies the prophet mohammed, a firestorm of worldwide muslim outrage ensues, but when a Pakistani taliban suicide bomber blows himself up in a mosque, killing innocent lives, we hear nothing from the "street" Overt US aid from any agency to the Iranian democracy protesters would play directly into the hands of the hard liners claims of "foriegn interventionist attempting to destabilize the legitimate govt.of Iran" The history of Iran,is littered with ham handed manipulation of the countries internal affairs, to keep the oil flowing at the lowest price, and to maintain a pro western bulwark aganst Soviet expansionism. The Iranians need to have sole ownership of their movement, to legitimize it and to succeed.