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PROOF: Obama IS the end of the free world
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2711

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

feuser wrote:
Well, true. We do live in a sound bite world. However, I think at some level any adult should be able to make the distinction between a message's content and it's delivery.


......and any adult should also know that stuffing more calories down his throat than he uses every day will result in obesity..........but still huge numbers engage in that behavior. In the real world the message has to be tailored to the audience to achieve any large impact. The average person glazes over at scientific gobbledygook.......and is rightly turned off when he sees hyperbole followed by retractions, apologies and investigations. Would you buy a used car from a salesman who gets the mpg and condition of the car wildly wrong.........even if he admits it? The same psychology applies here.


feuser wrote:
Constantly killing the debate because of personal failures and parroting damaging press for the involved scientists is irresponsible and dangerous, don't you think?


No I don't.........these are not personal failures, they are systemic failures. I believe it is irresponsible and dangerous to impose significant societal changes based upon a body of work that has repeatedly been proven to be flawed. We need to have much more confidence in the process (and consequently, the science) before we engage in anything other than common sense environmental practices.

Raising legitimate questions is not "killing the debate", it is properly engaging in a debate.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5345

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"repeatedly shown to be flawed?" Be specific and cite sources. Or go to bed.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5345

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe said:

Quote:
I get a little testy with mac at times (and, you may have noticed, with no-one else on this forum)

Oh, good to know you've not corrected anyone else's spelling, or offered to translate to Swahili for them. I'll have my vision checked tomorrow.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14310

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
the spokespeople for the scientific community have done an appalling job in selling their point of view.


What more could they do? Until the AGW bubble burst recently, the alphabet media has refused to propagate the scientific community's point of view, for several reasons including:
• It makes the Democratic party and the U.N. look like ideologic idiots.
• It is largely technical data, which may sell some books but few newspapers.
• They worshiped Al Gore, at least until his deceptions became too obvious to ignore.
• Soros and the U.N. so desperately and with almost unlimited funding have done all they can to squelch the scientific data.
• The extent of corruption in the peer review system has only recently come to light.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3603
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ISO , go ahead and bash George Soros . The old cat made $3.2 Billion, with a B, last year. And he gives Billions to help with the worlds problems. He can be the Right Wingers Bogeyman eight days a week, as far as Im concerned, the guy is my business idol. As far as Al Gore is concerned, the guy did invent the internet, for God's sake, lay off the guy.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14310

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker wrote:
isobars wrote:
From Interfaith voices 1/13/2006
(Audio file of the interview it at
http://interfaithradio.org/audio/download/7 ):

Host: “Are you then calling for the redistribution of wealth in society?”

Obama’s new pastor, Rev Jim Wallis: ”Absolutely, without any hesitation. That’s what the gospel is all about.”

Geez, is there NO one in Obama's bloodline or mentor chain -- no one who conceived, raised, or academically or spiritually advised him -- who doesn't hate the U.S. and capitalism AND support at least one of the heinous -isms?
Working from a database of one sentence from one guy is the kind of evidence many people on both sides of the GW issue take as gospel as well


And this, guys, is why I seldom bother to cite references: it's too much effort for the ideologues to click one button on one link , then sit on their butts and listen to the 15-minute interview from which Wallis's very telling and very representative sound bite teaser was lifted. Asking them to actually open a book full of data and look at it for$#!+$sake is out of the question.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1958
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="isobars"]
keycocker wrote:
isobars wrote:
From Interfaith voices 1/13/2006
(Audio file of the interview it at
http://interfaithradio.org/audio/download/7 ):

Host: “Are you then calling for the redistribution of wealth in society?”

Obama’s new pastor, Rev Jim Wallis: ”Absolutely, without any hesitation. That’s what the gospel is all about.”

Geez, is there NO one in Obama's bloodline or mentor chain -- no one who conceived, raised, or academically or spiritually advised him -- who doesn't hate the U.S. and capitalism AND support at least one of the heinous -isms?
Working from a database of one sentence from one guy is the kind of evidence many people on both sides of the GW issue take as gospel as well


Mike won't read this (he claims) but perhaps someone else might enjoy it.

IMHO, every person claiming sincere religious belief does their flawed best to adhere to what they believe is the right course of action. Any deviation from another's idea of what that path should have been often leads to all sorts of accusations of hypocrisy and recrimination. I'm as guilty of a hair trigger as the next person.

There is a thread of thought within many Catholicism and Protestantism labelled liberation theology. In a nutshell, iberation theology claims that only through the economic and social liberation of the person can the mind be truly free. I invite others more familiar with this strain of evangelicalism contribute more to this topic. I admit my exposure to this should've made more of an impression academically, but I was then distract by things pertaining to wind and wave.

It seems to me that there are some who recklessly attach the label of socialist (intending to channel fears of Stalin, Khrushchev, Castro and Mao) to anyone employing the word "redistribution" no matter the context. As most agree, taxation is an acceptable way to fund municipal projects and finance every level of government. Taxation is by its very nature one form of wealth redistribution.

So the President attends a church in which the pastor advocates for a world in which the less have more and disparity of wealth is reduced? Who dares say this is wrong? I believe most people across all cultures, including Rupert Murdoch and Glenn Beck -egad! agree that poverty prevents each person caught in its grips from achieving the best existence possible. It is, in fact, the basis of the concept of human rights. Some crow about the U.N., the trilateral commission and McDonald's, but one cannot be either too liberal or too conservative to appreciate the wet blanket that is poverty. How we go about the effort to reduce or eradicate it admittedly steps on somebody's toes and tends to cause some backlash.

In any event, such a position is an example of what it is to be American. Bootstrapping one's way to wealth is an economic fiction for nobody in the USA -or any other- made their future without stepping on the back of at least one who came before. Indeed, the very development of capitalism is rooted in a terrible history of oppression including slavery, child labor, servitude and taxation without representation. (In the most delicious of ironies, the populist objectors called the Tea Party seem to forget that they are represented in three separately elected houses of federal government. That's a far cry from the few who tossed boxes of loose tea into the Fort Point Channel just up the road from my home.)

Rev. Wallis is not some wacko, although not all agree. I listened to the 2006 interview and it stands as a great look into what values we wish to support.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5881

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say mrgybe, you have this predictable and quite consistent approach when you want to cast a shadow on something. I like to view it along the lines of the OJ Simpson defense, as I highlighted so much earlier in this thread. Irrespective of the wealth of facts available, all you need to do is find one or two questionable issues and expand on them.

An example. The issue of thousands of scientists and environmentalists traveling to exotic locales, and by doing this they're creating this huge carbon footprint that runs contrary to what they're preaching. Now, is that really a reason to crap on and dismiss the whole premise of global warming and the potential harm it may be doing to our world? Let's be fair, if there's an international meeting, the greatest majority of folks will have to travel there. Also, it's not like the planes were specially provided to service those going to the meeting. The real secret is getting the peoples' ire up by flaunting the fancy exotic places. Somewhere they would love to go but they can't afford to.

Another example was the Climategate scenario. Find some questionable activity somewhere and use it to dismiss all the science. Then you use a small minority who deny that global warming is occurring, and they instantly become the majority of the American people. The Republicans have been using this strategy wholesale since the Reagan years. The American people don't want healthcare reform is just the most recent incarnation of this strategy. Use a small fringe group like the tea party movement, introduce lies and deceptions crafted by a bunch of shills and media representing questionable interests, and what do you have? The American people don't want this or that. Pretty damn simple to create lies and illusions to fool the public.

While you are smart and very clever mrgybe, not everyone buys the use of the OJ Simpson defense strategy in making important judgments and decisions. Nonetheless, I think it's of great value to look at all sides of an issue, even those that might run contrary. That's healthy and appropriate, as it allows one to more suitably respond in an intelligent and thoughtful way.

Is global warming occurring? I don't know for sure, but I do know that many things that we as humans do can't be good for our environment. I think folks with half a brain know this. I guess where the real divisiveness comes into play is how do we clean up our act and ultimately pay for it. Fortunately for us all, the spectrum of things that can be done is very very broad, and some are more attainable and realistic than others. Rather than a wholesale dismissal of global warming and climate change, it's crucial that we focus on critical development and improvements we can make that will work to clean our world for the future.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3441

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I listened to it, though Obama isn't my guy, to see how one could conclude that everybody in Os whole life fit this.
"--- NO one in Obama's bloodline or mentor chain -- no one who conceived, raised, or academically or spiritually advised him -- who doesn't hate the U.S. and capitalism AND support at least one of the heinous -isms?...."
The guy forgot to mention that he hated the US, capitalism, along with all of the hundreds of folks a guy meets on the way to the Presidency.
.
"no one who conceived" His mother hated the US?
"NO one in Obama's bloodline" His Kansas ancestors hated the US?
"or mentor chain" All his teachers hated the US?
"raised"His Hawaii grandparents hated the US?
"spiritually advised him" Every minister in every church he ever attended hates the US?
Talk Radio can really confuse a listener with all this hate talk
Finding an American outside of Talk who actually hates the US is very hard to do. We are the most patriotic nation on earth, but if you listen to Talk you will learn that anyone who disagrees about any tiny detail in the Far right extremist agenda HATES his country.
You want to provide insurance in a different way than me?That's because you HATE the US.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2711

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Irrespective of the wealth of facts available, all you need to do is find one or two questionable issues and expand on them.

The public perception of the facts is as important as the facts themselves to achieve any meaningful legislation. That's my point......the scientific community is losing the public on this issue.

swchandler wrote:
The issue of thousands of scientists and environmentalists traveling to exotic locales, and by doing this they're creating this huge carbon footprint that runs contrary to what they're preaching. Now, is that really a reason to crap on and dismiss the whole premise of global warming?

I have never done that

swchandler wrote:
Let's be fair, if there's an international meeting, the greatest majority of folks will have to travel there.


No they won't..........use "green" methods.......e.g teleconferencing.....or cut the number of delegates by 90%. The vast majority of a 20,000 person meeting will have zero impact on the outcome of the meeting.

swchandler wrote:
Then you use a small minority who deny that global warming is occurring, and they instantly become the majority of the American people.

Americans are not the only one's potentially impacted. Here's some data from Europe......hardly a small minority of skeptics:

Greener than thou The Economist Feb 10, 2010
The public, perhaps egged on by the coldest winter since 1995-96, is growing cynical. According to a Populus poll released on February 7th, the share of voters claiming not to believe that climate change is happening at all has risen from 15% to 25% since the e-mail furore. The proportion who think both that it is happening and that it is man-made has dropped from 41% to 26%.

Climate scientists hope independent reviews will reverse public’s loss of trust London Times Feb 25, 2010
The allegations about climate scientists are believed to have contributed to a sharp rise in public scepticism about climate change. This month an opinion poll found that the proportion of the population that believes climate change is an established fact and largely man-made has fallen from 41 per cent in November to 26 per cent.


swchandler wrote:
Is global warming occurring? I don't know for sure, but I do know that many things that we as humans do can't be good for our environment.

I agree
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