PROOF: Obama IS the end of the free world

[mac]

GT--My sister is still a Catholic, and active in the church. I think that at the grass roots level, with the number of Catholics dropping and the Vatican tone-deaf about the antagonism to women that much of their messages were, most parish priests and parishioners in America began to ignore the truly outlandish dogma of the church. Churches work very well as communities and as spiritual guides without the papal cloak of infallability. So you see common support for gay marriage as a civil matter, contraception, and abortion tolerance among the vast majority of Catholics.

I think this is very threatening to the Catholic hierarchy, as modernity is to the Muslim hierarchy. The conservatives have taken charge in the Vatican, and if you think the evidence doesn't support the view that they are interested primarily in power, you must be smoking crack. They have, so to speak, cracked down on dissident priests and tried to reassert their authority, a point mrgybe agrees with.

But there is something a bit more sinsister going on here if you are, like me, a supporter of strict separation between the church and the state. The Catholic bishops have, I believe quite consciously, become involved in a partisan attack on Obama. I believe that they are daring him to enforce the IRS limitations on political activities. Now the small evangelical churches have flaunted their claims that religious freedom allows them to back partisan candidates; many have become as much a part of the Republican Party as Fox news. All administrations, for the past 40 years, have threatened such churches with loss of their tax-exempt status, and the churches eventually back off--but the battle is constant. The Catholic Bishops are counting on their great size to intimidate the administration--and in the process help elect a President that is more favorable to school vouchers and hostile to gay rights.

[GURGLETROUSERS]

Sorry Mac. Thoughtless of me to base my views on what happens over here, where our Church of England holds most sway.(Rest assured I've never taken drugs .. my vision of life goes beyond such nonsense.)

Our Church of England is very gentile. Half the bishops don't believe in God, and those who do seem quite defensive and apologetic, but I believe many of them are good people.

We had a past Bishop of Durham who quite honestly tried to rationalise the concepts of Heaven and Hell, and who dismissed the resurrection stories as conjuring tricks with bones. He was a figure of fun to many, but I felt his integrity and honesty shone through. As I've said before I came under the influence of one such devout person as a student who, like the bishop, wasn't able to give definitive answers, but who's faith remained intact.

My only contact with Catholics is with ordinary family people who seemingly take little notice of Rome, and its edicts. I often wonder why they remain catholics but, tradition and continuity play a large part in life over here, (not to mention bloody minded contrariness), and I'm sure they feel there is a purpose to life even though they, or I, have any idea what. So who's to say they are wrong! Even Solomon in all his wisdom couldn't come up with any better answer.

[mrgybe]

GT, If you are looking for a balanced view on the Catholic Church or on the oil industry, I would not recommend the poster from Berkeley. I will not take the bait that he is hanging out, but I will comment that to state that the vast majority of Catholics are supportive of abortion is a lie. Practicing Catholics do not by a large margin. The views of those who were born Catholic but no longer practice the Catholic faith are of no consequence for the purpose of such a discussion.

[coboardhead]

[mac]

Thanks CB. It is usually mrgybe that says "read my message." I've known for some time that he can't listen, it might upset his already made up mind.

I think that I have acurately distinguished the rank and file Catholic from those in the Knights of Columbus.

[coboardhead]

[mrgybe]

Let me rephrase my comment........stating that "abortion tolerance" is in evidence "among the vast majority of Catholics" is a lie. If anyone can produce one shred of evidence which supports the proposition that the vast majority of practicing Catholics are tolerant of abortion, I will withdraw my comment. I think we will all know how to interpret the absence of a response.

[isobars]

[mrgybe]

[boggsman1]