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baggy drysuit comparison (3 listed) recommendation?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19222

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

$#!+!!! Three beats zero.

Mike ;-(
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nwwindsurf



Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 43
Location: East Wash ag waste dump

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, made the plunge and ordered a Kokatat GFER - size Large. Bought from REI with their current 20% and free shipping... $750 with tax. Ouch.

Based on the sizing chart and Kok's suggestions on their site, my waist at 38" and height at 5'10.5" puts me into the Large suit.

Received the Large suit, put on some thick/bulky underlayers, then tried the suit on. The body seems too long (crotch to shoulders) as do the arms & legs. Even with underclothes on, the suit waist seems like it has a lot of extra room and obviously the suit body can't be shortened. The arms & legs are definitely overlong (arms by a couple inches).

I'm wondering if I should just order the Medium now, and take back the suit I decide fits least best? My only real concern is that my waist exceeds the Medium size (34" max), but since I am 5'10" I seem to better fit into this one.

How much clothing bulk should I alot for? I tried 1 layer polypro + 1 layer bulky sweatpants & top, and still had lots of room in the suit.

Any suggestions? (ok, diet is #1) Razz

How much extra suit room is too much?

---

Suit was much easier to get into/out of than I thought. The wrist seals are not super tight, but the neck... wow, choke me head purple. Funny talking with the seal on the adams apple... sound like helium Bob, or a munchkin.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19222

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nwwindsurf wrote:
Based on the sizing chart and Kok's suggestions on their site, my waist at 38" and height at 5'10.5" puts me into the Large suit. The body seems too long (crotch to shoulders) as do the arms & legs. Even with underclothes on, the suit waist seems like it has a lot of extra room and obviously the suit body can't be shortened. The arms & legs are definitely overlong (arms by a couple inches). I'm wondering if I should just order the Medium now, and take back the suit I decide fits least best? My only real concern is that my waist exceeds the Medium size (34" max), but since I am 5'10" I seem to better fit into this one.

How much extra suit room is too much?

the neck... wow, choke me head purple. Funny talking with the seal on the adams apple... sound like helium Bob, or a munchkin.


I'm 5'8.5" @ 198# these days with a 36" waist, and the Large fits me very well; I'm certain I couldn't get my torso into a Medium. The suit's arms and legs would fit longer arm and legs than mine, but since they are tight at the cuffs, the extra couple of inches are immaterial. I never notice any excess length. Mine has a drawstring at the waist, but I never need it. Besides, we can control excess room by burping the excess air out the neck seal. (If you REALLY want to sound like a munchkin, burp out TOO much air while standing in the water.) Ignore the purple face for a while; if it remains too tight, you can stretch it over a kitchen saucepan overnight. If even that fails, you can very carefully -- no nicks! -- cut off a ring or two. My standard L neck seal felt tight initially but quickly adapted to my 17" neck.

Mike \m/
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nwwindsurf



Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 43
Location: East Wash ag waste dump

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mike.

How much clothing bulk to allow for in a gortex suit, ie: in the current 50F(ish) water?

I was thinking of just wearing a polypro layer + 1 layer fleece, but I have no idea what the heat retention is in a suit like this.

Another point, I probably spend a lot more time in the water than you, but then, probably work a lot harder too (not so efficient) which builds up heat. I typically perspire a lot, especially with neoprene.

Just don't want to risk hypothermia if for some reason I go on a 2 hour float down river.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19222

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In water in the mid 40s, I've worn as much as 3 layers of fleece on my legs (clumsy and too warm!) and two on top (too warm). I was very comfortable Tuesday with two light layers of fleece on my legs and one on top; much colder and I use heftier fleece on my legs and add a fleece vest on top. HOWEVER, insulation is a highly personal factor. I've seen guys wearing full neoprene dry suits in the Gorge (plus hood and hefty booties at 100 degrees F) and Maui in full July heat, and I've seen guys wearing board shorts in October in the Gorge.

I doubt you work any harder than I or spend any more time in the water. I crash a lot and I drop into the water and relax if I can't plane, and my chosen sailing style leaves me heaving for air quite often despite being extremely fit aerobically. And for safety's sake, I dress for the swim, not the air temp. And that's one of the wonders of Goretex suits; if I get soaked in sweat because I've overdressed (and the fitter we are, the sooner and more we sweat), the moisture evaporates through the Goretex even when I'm in the water cooling off. You'll quickly learn how much insulation to wear; I got overheated far more often than I got cool (and you can reduce heat loss if too cool by leaving more air in the suit).

There's no reason for people of normal proportions (I know a weight lifter who is a tight squeeze through a doorway at about 350-400 pounds and 6 feet tall; he's not normal) to allow for the thickness of their insulation; the suit takes care of that. What counts most is torso length, within reason.

Mike \m/
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2276
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
In water in the mid 40s, I've worn as much as 3 layers of fleece on my legs (clumsy and too warm!) and two on top (too warm). I was very comfortable Tuesday with two light layers of fleece on my legs and one on top; much colder and I use heftier fleece on my legs and add a fleece vest on top. HOWEVER, insulation is a highly personal factor. I've seen guys wearing full neoprene dry suits in the Gorge (plus hood and hefty booties at 100 degrees F) and Maui in full July heat, and I've seen guys wearing board shorts in October in the Gorge.

I doubt you work any harder than I or spend any more time in the water. I crash a lot and I drop into the water and relax if I can't plane, and my chosen sailing style leaves me heaving for air quite often despite being extremely fit aerobically. And for safety's sake, I dress for the swim, not the air temp. And that's one of the wonders of Goretex suits; if I get soaked in sweat because I've overdressed (and the fitter we are, the sooner and more we sweat), the moisture evaporates through the Goretex even when I'm in the water cooling off. You'll quickly learn how much insulation to wear; I got overheated far more often than I got cool (and you can reduce heat loss if too cool by leaving more air in the suit).

There's no reason for people of normal proportions (I know a weight lifter who is a tight squeeze through a doorway at about 350-400 pounds and 6 feet tall; he's not normal) to allow for the thickness of their insulation; the suit takes care of that. What counts most is torso length, within reason.

Mike \m/


Contrary to Mike's statement that Gore Tex allows evaporation "even when I'm in the water", no membrane waterproof system in the world will allow evaporation through the membrane when the outside surface is wet. Any skier who has experienced skiing in the rain knows this within minutes of the fabric wetting out. What once was a nice, regulated environment inside the jacket turns into something resembling a soggy piece of bread.

What Mike's probably feeling is conductive cooling of the inside layers from the suit fabric being pressed inward by pressure of cold water.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2721

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....


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_________________
/w\
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nwwindsurf



Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 43
Location: East Wash ag waste dump

PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great photo. Really surprising the head gear would fit that snug to withhold so much air... assuming of course, this is not the natural state of the body within Smile

Is that bloated suit a "failure to burp" or "excessive burrito" issue?
Possibly both!

BTW, I'm not so sure that is what the marque de saude had in mind for evening attire.

===

Large size it is. Testing with the maximum insulation I would possibly wear (a couple layers of heavier bulk) the suit fills out and leaves free movement. A Medium only fits me with 1 layer of thin polypro, which would render the suit useless most of the year.

Thanks.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19222

PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NWWsurf, you've invested a bunch of money and hopes in this suit. and it’s obvious that a gaggle of “people” -- to use the word loosely -- care more about slamming me than they do about others getting answers to questions. I was concerned about the BS you may be getting from them re your expensive suit, so I looked at their responses. Sure enough, Dan's raincoat post is irrelevant, misleading, and flat-out wrong. He should do some research before posting (or maybe BUY A KOKATAT), instead of comparing apples to fin screws while wearing welder’s goggles.

So to clear the air, you’ll have to keep reading … and reading … and reading …

According to Kokatat, water is driven through Goretex by heat differential, not moisture differential. A warm wet body dressed in a modern GoreTex dry suit submerged in water cooler than your skin dries out just fine. As long as you don't wear your Kokatat GoreTex suit in 100-degree water (e.g., Morgan Lake near the power plant outlet), it's dryness will amaze you as long as you care for it properly. Damp ankles. due to tunneling at the ankle seal, are a small and infrequent price to pay for sailing in pajamas.

See http://www.kayakacademy.com/pages/drysuitfaq.html for their take on GoreTex's evolution, on modern Gore Tex, and on Kokatat. And here's GoreTex's guarantee:
If you are not completely satisfied with the waterproofness, windproofness, or breathability of a GORE-TEX® product then we will repair it, replace it, or refund your purchase price. All GORE-TEX® garments and footwear - and only GORE-TEX® garments and footwear - carry the Guaranteed to Keep You Dry® promise. What does this mean? It means that no liquid from the outside will get to you on the inside. This includes moisture from the wet grass you’re kneeling in to the sudden squall you get caught in. And that's a promise.
Quoting GoreTex: The secret of GORE-TEX® outerwear -- which is both completely waterproof and completely breathable at the same time -- lies within its revolutionary bi-component membrane. The membrane contains over 9 billion microscopic pores which are approximately 20,000 times smaller than a drop of water, but 700 times bigger than a molecule of moisture vapor. So while water in its liquid form cannot penetrate the GORE-TEX® membrane, as moisture vapor it can easily escape.

From Wikipedia, which Dan obviously didn’t check before hitting SEND:
Both wear and cleaning will reduce the performance of Gore-Tex clothes by wearing away the Durable Water Repellent (DWR) treatment on the surface of the fabric. The DWR prevents the face fabric from becoming wet and thus reducing breathability. However, the DWR is not responsible for the jacket being waterproof. This is a common misconception, so when the face fabric becomes soaked due to an absence of DWR, there is no breathability and the wearer's sweat will cause condensation to form inside the jacket. This may give the appearance that a jacket is leaking when is not, but the DWR is still crucial to the best performance of any membrane-based waterproof. It can be reinvigorated by tumble drying the garment or ironing on a low setting. If this does not work, re-proofing the garment with a wash-in re-proofer can again add water repellency to the face fabric.

If your Kokatat suit looks damp as you walk out of the river, its DWR needs restoration according to the above paragraph. The suit should, and usually does, emerge dry, with a few small beads of water rolling off the outer layer. Dan would have known that if he ... you know … OWNED A KOKATAT. I’ve owned two of them, and sail with many of them all worn by total converts. I and many of my buds have also owned and worn many varieties of non-GoreTex dry suits, which, by comparison, feel like Norwegian sweat lodges on the river and meat lockers on land.

Always keep one sorry, dismal, disgusting fact foremost in your mind here: These 18 or so POS I've killfiled are interested only in slamming me at any expense, even if it means misinforming others. I strongly suggest that any time these obvious attack rats dispute any advice, opinions, or facts I offer, you come back to me for clarification rather than assuming they give a damn about anything but "slamming the conservative". It's a (rat)pack thing they do which is banned in responsible moderated forums. The problem here in the iW forums is that the primary moderator has admitted he is a liberal who doesn't like my politics, so decent readers interested in windsurfing pay a heavy price even in these non-political forum threads. Any time you want my clarification on any of my advice these uberliberal children have contradicted, you’ll have to ask me directly; I do not see these “people’s” posts:

Boggsman
Mac
Swchandler (that’s too bad, his windsurfing advice seemed pretty sound)
Gerritt
Theq
Windoggie
Coyotewindsurf
Mulekick
Tetiaroaxx
Rumsfeld
Mr. Bush
Dick Cheney
BarackObama
Dan Weiss
Feuser
Dude-bro-shit and his toilet-mate dud_bro_turd
Insh8bl
WMP
Jpbassking

None of them gives a damn about your getting sound, knowledgeable advice, or even SWAGs or WAGs, from a conservative; they just want to circle jerk on the neocon at your expense. Don't let them, or at least demand they wear condoms.


Last edited by isobars on Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:52 pm; edited 8 times in total
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jpbassman



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 3321
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
..Always keep one sorry, dismal, disgusting fact foremost in your mind here: These 18 or so POS I've killfiled are interested only in slamming me at any expense, even if it means misinforming others. I strongly suggest that any time these obvious attack rats dispute any advice, opinions, or facts I offer, you come back to me for clarification rather than assuming they give a damn about anything but "slamming the conservative". It's a (rat)pack thing they do which is banned in responsible moderated forums. The problem here in the iW forums is that the primary moderator has admitted he is a liberal who doesn't like my politics, so decent readers interested in windsurfing pay a heavy price even in these non-political forum threads. Any time you want my clarification on any of my advice these uberliberal children have contradicted, you’ll have to ask me directly; I do not see these “people’s” posts:
Boggsman
Mac
Swchandler (that’s too bad, his windsurfing advice seemed pretty sound)
Gerritt
Theq
Windoggie
Coyotewindsurf
Mulekick
Tetiaroaxx
Rumsfeld
Mr. Bush
Dick Cheney
BarackObama
Dan Weiss
Feuser
Dude-bro-shit and his toilet-mate dud_bro_turd
Insh8bl
WMP
Jpbassking

None of them gives a damn about your getting sound, knowledgeable advice, or even SWAGs or WAGs, from a conservative; they just want to circle jerk on the neocon at your expense. Don't let them, or at least demand they wear condoms.


Oh woe is me..
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