Simmer Sail problem

isobars · Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 20935

Maybe you guys' lack of power confirms my suspicion why the local Simmer rep is well known for using such big sails. He's literally about 5 feet tall but uses bigger sails than our resident 6'3" ox. I always thought the 4.4 he always uses was actually about a 3.5, max, by the time he downhauled it to hell and back; toss in the flat profile and maybe he's on a 3.0.

Mike \m/

jingebritsen · Joined: 21 Aug 2002 Posts: 3371

If a sail has seam shaping, one can try a stiffer mast. That should do 2 things: tighten the leech and force the shape down low to be fuller. Who has lots of masts to play with? Any racer type. Skinnies will just exaggerate the problem.

Some designers have a bias for lots of twist for some models. Sometimes, the target market is missed entirely though. Sail design is both a science and art. It's been years (2002) since I've tested Simmers.

LoveSplittingLanes · Joined: 17 Jul 2004 Posts: 97 Location: Back in CA!

Hey Rich,
Yes it was a very sweet price for that Crossover back in 05 and still hooked on Simmer as long as I can make use of these sails... As said, the Icon, X type on 1 (of 2) 3XC have a normal shape and GREAT FEEL on the water But, as you can read, few of us have had issues with some and cannot explain it since rigged on the reommended mast... What is the honest answer to this problem? I will continue exploring and testing the various options with different masts... That said, I am sure other brands also have issues... If Simmer survived 20+ years in the business, they must be doing something right! O.

LeeD · Joined: 12 Jun 2008 Posts: 1175

Honest answer??
As explained, we as sailors have to use the masts and booms we currently have, and adapt it to whatever sails we apply at the time.
If a sail has "too much" flopped leech, and too flat thru the luff, BACK OFF THE FRICKEN DOWNHAUL !
If the sail is tight atop and deep drafted right off the mast, pull down some.
If you are driving a lonely road and the red light in front of you STAYS RED for 1/2 hour, should you sit there and wait for green?
If the weatherman says it's gonna be sunny and warm, and you go outside and it's raining and cold, should you wear a T-shirt and shorts?
If you believed everything Bush said during his campaign for presidentcy, should you now say he's a great president?
C'mon, things change, and we have to ADAPT !!

isobars · Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 20935

Are you saying all sails should look fairly similar on the beach regardless of their design principles? I think Bruce and Blake would disagree.

Mike

thombiz · Joined: 25 Jun 2007 Posts: 799 Location: Corpus Christi

Oh, you can't possibly believe we (I) didn't try a number of options before we all but gave up. An of course we tried less downhaul, more downhaul, less outhaul, more outhaul, softer masts, stiffer masts, RDM's, hybrid masts, old Dynafibers. new Powerex's and Sailworks backbones, etc., etc. Lets see, been sailing since 1968, racing at a national level since 1972, windsurfing more than 16 years. Repaired over 6000 sails, and you think I need to adapt. Get Real!

LeeD · Joined: 12 Jun 2008 Posts: 1175

Yes, get real and adapt.
Apply more down, you get more floppy leech and flatter draft behind the mast. You know that, so what to do? Obviously, you lessen down!!
If you lessen down, what happens besides you don't use the manufacturer's numbers? Less floppy leech and deeper draft is WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR !!!!
Is that so hard to understand?
Now if you lessen down, and a 45 degree wrinkle appears going from tack to clew, that's too much lessened downhaul. That area should be somewhat smooth. So you add more down until that wrinkle disappears!!
As stated, a stiffer mast would almost do the same. And RDM's can be very different depending what company and WHEN they are made.
If you are judging dowhaul amount by the leading tip of the batten above the boom, you are looking at your feet while you are driving.
Forget that old notion, and forget negative, positive, or neutral outhaul settings.
Set the sail correctly, it will work well.
And attach the boom before you make final decisions.....NO not only on the mast, but the outhaul of the sail !!!@! Rolling Eyes

LeeD · Joined: 12 Jun 2008 Posts: 1175

Oh, Thombiz....
For your reference, I've been selling windsurfing sails at the busiest store in SFBay for over 15 years, and lesser stores for over 10.
I've had OnshoreWave 6.2's (predesesor to CrossOver) and 6.2 Search and NR's.
And yes, I'm one of those guys who mix and match every different kind of mast ever sold in USA, some working, others NOT.
And of course, I'm NOT an engineer, and when I see something is NOT working, I change it, regardless of printed spec or hearsay.

wooot · Joined: 05 Oct 2002 Posts: 199

I never acually look at sail specs except when I first get the sail..... then fine tune for what YOU like, they are never exactly correct anyway, how much variation in 1 seam location would it take to change the downhaul by an inch anyway.

Not even Northwaves are perfect...

I sail at the same place as Isobars, we all pretty much have Northwaves, and we all like them rigged a bit differently, Mike probobly w/ the least downhaul ... me with pretty high outhaul med. downhaul, and many variations in between.

It's all about FEEL, and what you like. Ignore the numbers

There is no right way, but there is certainly a line w/ maybe to much outhaul or downhaul where the sail will start to feel funky.

there are also just bad or poorly/miscut sails out there.

Might be the case here

Windpig

FredFX · Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject:

Actually, I extended the downhaul by 4 or so centimeters (one hole more than recommended) and the outhaul to 220 (max the boom would go to, and instead of 213 as recommended), and it worked fine.

However it was still loose, and lacking a bit of power.

So I need a new boom and a little bit more downhaul and then itd be perfect!