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Hawaii State Law would prohibit WS within 200' of a surfer
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a sailor and a surfer, my vote is for the obvious natural order of things: Surfers Rule.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2001

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerritt & nealpar,

This is all speculation as how it would play out in a court of law, but here is my best interpretation of the Navigational Rules as they were explained to me in my Boating Safety Instructor Class.

1. The main purpose of navigational rules is to prevent collisions and other avoidable accidents, such as grounding in poor visibility, injuring people in the water, and damaging property.
2. While under way, boat operators are required to keep a proper lookout for other vessels, light and sound signals, obstructions, and swimmers.
3. “Right of Way” is given to the least maneuverable craft.
4. Sailboarders and kiteboarders are considered sailboats for “Right of Way” purposes.

Some “Right of Way” rules change based on location. In the open ocean, for example, a sailboat would have “Right of Way” over a cargo ship. But inside SF Bay or any other body of water where the cargo ship is restricted to a navigable channel, the cargo ship would have “Right of Way.”

Swimmers will have “Right of Way” inside all swim areas, and unfortunately for those of you that like to ride breaking waves in the ocean, that usually falls within 100-200 feet from shore. Outside of the swim zone the swimmer would likely loose their “Right of Way” unless it was a perfectly clear, calm day, in which event you would refer to No. 1 & 2.

I think the lifeguard's testimony would not be needed. All the judge would have to do is look at No. 2


windoggie,
Since surfers are considered a less maneuverable craft to windsurfers, than yes, the surfers would rule. But here is a nasty technicality. If a swimmer decided to venture into the waves, they would rule. But I’m not sure that a swimmer would be interested taking a beating, both in the water and on land afterwards, by swimming in waves that are surfable,

Coachg
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tsokat



Joined: 15 May 1997
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This just in:

http://www.sbckiteboard.com/News?news_id=381&uniqid=1015


Great news. It is nice to see that the political process worked in our favor.
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gregorvass



Joined: 21 Nov 1996
Posts: 1113
Location: Behind You

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

windoggie wrote:
As a sailor and a surfer, my vote is for the obvious natural order of things: Surfers Rule.



Sure below 15 knots...........what if its 30???????????

Each condition has its weapon........look at Laird. He uses all kinds of equipment!


NOBODY RULES ANYTHING.........MOTHER NATURE RULES US!
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gregorvass



Joined: 21 Nov 1996
Posts: 1113
Location: Behind You

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I myself have been in the water surfing a Kanaha with 4 other surfers on a perfect offshore day only to be driven out of the water by 3 crazed windsurfers (probably euros) trying to sail in marginal sailing conditions.


YOU MUST BE A NATIVE HAWAIIAN OR A NATIVE INDIAN.
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nealpar



Joined: 25 Oct 1998
Posts: 624

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerritt, all lifeguards have been "trained" to say with considerable confidence that the H&N Code does apply to windsurfers and that "propelled by machinery" includes the apparatus of the sail or kite. This of course does not mean that they are not wrong. Maybe the city's lawyers have already done their job.

I wish the best of luck to whoever is going to set the precedent on how the law is applied to windsurfers/kitesurfers.

However, let's assume that the law does apply. I still have a problem with the way the lifeguards at our beaches are able to "threaten" us with "selective enforcement". I mean, if one of us gets ticketed under the 100' or 200 ' rule, there should be dozens more on a typical summer day who technically probably also should be ticketed. But that's not how the law is applied. The 100' or 200' rule is used only as a "deterrent" against OTHER TYPE OF BEHAVIOR, such as "exhibition of speed", or riding waves too close to surfers.

Also, what is "too close"?
The surfers' or lifeguard's perception of what's dangerously close does not coincide with a windsurfer's perception of the same. I've sat on a surfboard while windsurfers zig zagged near me, and it's true that it looks scary from that vantage point. For us windsurfers, the distance that may be considered dangerously close might only be 2-3 feet. We know how our equipment handles and what we're capable of pulling off. By contrast, for a surfer, 6-10 feet might feel "dangerously close" especially if the windsurfer is coming fast. So on top of the selective enforcement, there is this perception problem too.

Since it's so subjective, then the best advice is to be "cool" and don't ruffle feathers. But that takes me to the next question.....WHAT IS COOL? HEY, WHAT ABOUT MY LEARNING CURVE? WHEN DO I GET LEARN TO SMACK THAT LIP WHICH WE ALL KNOW REQUIRES SPEEEEEEED AT THE CRITICAL SECTION OF THE WAVE........ Laughing
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregorvass wrote:
windoggie wrote:
As a sailor and a surfer, my vote is for the obvious natural order of things: Surfers Rule.



Sure below 15 knots...........what if its 30???????????

Each condition has its weapon........look at Laird. He uses all kinds of equipment!


NOBODY RULES ANYTHING.........MOTHER NATURE RULES US!


No one surfs when its blowing 30. Except maybe Laird.
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andrewc



Joined: 30 Jun 1997
Posts: 242

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

windoggie wrote:
As a sailor and a surfer, my vote is for the obvious natural order of things: Surfers Rule.


As a SUP'er and a longboarder, my vote is obvious longboarders rule
As a longboarder and a shortboarder, my vote is obvious , shortboarders rule
As a shortboarder and a body boarder, my vote is obvious , body boarders rule
As a body boarder, and a swimmer, my vote is obvious swimmers rule

Ad nauseum....
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5813

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seriously doubt things have changed since my surfing days, and I can honestly say that body boards never had any rights over surfers, and the same could be said for longboards versus shortboards.

That being said though, I think that SUPs need to grant some reasonable leeway to longboards and shortboards. Their advantages are just to great at the takeoff points. Nevertheless, given sensible courtsey, the SUPs have to get their waves too, so mutual sharing must be accepted. When it really comes down to it, nobody loves the wave hog.
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windward1



Joined: 18 Jun 2000
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject: Show-Offs Reply with quote

It won't take sticking the nose of your board into a swimmer's ear to have legislation restricting the sport achieving passage, although that would do it quickly. An ealier post wrote about perceptions, and what he said is true. The swimmer or surfer is going to be more threatened than the windsurfer at the same distance. So take that into consideration. Leave enough space based on their perception, not your own. They are the ones that are going to file a complaint or contact their legislators.

And then there are those who think that they know their equipment and what they can do so they jump themselves over someone while kiting or windsurfing. Stop doing that! Curb your appetite to show off! Or you are going to ruin it for the rest of us that are willing to leave decent buffer zones.

Swimmers often swim across Kanaha at about 50 meters out from shore. And they are not easily seen. Keep an eye out for them and give them wide berth or there will be a nose of a board in a swimmers ear. If we prevent collisions and near collisions legislation probably won't happen. On the other hand, if we don't........
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