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FredBGG



Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 725

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nealpar wrote:
FredBGG wrote:
nealpar wrote:


WAKE UP AMERICA! EUROPE AND CHINA IS KICKING YOUR ASS!


And guess what....... they both have socialized medicine, promote alternative medicine and above all have socialized education beyond k through 12.


What is your point FredBGG?
Are you implying that alternative medicine is bad? Are you implying that the education k through 12 is weaker in Europe? If so, you're gravely mistaken on both issues. Go do some traveling, get to know some Europeans, and you'll soon learn how seriously mediocre your child's education (k thru 12) is compared to a euro kid's education.


Nealpar. How the hell did you read that crap from my post.

What I am saying is that Europe is doing well and so is China while both have succesfull socialized health care, socialized education all the way up to University, you can add to that a very solid socialized safety net. Despite maintaining all these programs they are kicking the US of A's ass!

As for travelling I have lived in 8 countries (and worked in several more) on three different continents, speak 4 languages fluently and know what a euro kid's education is like because my kids got half of there's there like I did. They speak two languages fluently too. As for alternative medicine I use it all the time.
As for my opinion of the US education systen you don't want to get me going. Mediocre is hardly an honest description. It is shockingly bad.
American schools are overstaffed with pathetic useless admin staff, councelors and psychologists ( the last being the most ignorant).
35% or US school kids are on some sort of psychotic drug, for the most part any chemical compound that can be peddled for ADD.
Frustration is so high in US schools that blood bath shootings have become far to common.
While the problems just keep getting worse the idiots just cover it all up with pep rallies, patheticly pompous graduation ceremonies and honor student bumper stickers.

To quote the great Mark Twain:
"Don't let school get in the way of your education".
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gregorvass



Joined: 21 Nov 1996
Posts: 1113
Location: Behind You

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Public School Problems
The American Public School system has many problems today. American students rank near the bottom regarding students in other industrialized countries. Students are often so out of control that Teachers cannot do what they are paid to do, and they often wind up to be babysitters! Or operating an informal day-care operation!

There are many reasons for this, all related to various aspects of human nature. But there is one central failing that is horrendous! The American Public School system is now based on a WRONG ASSUMPTION!

Prior to maybe 40 years ago, the System understood that it was intended TO ENABLE KIDS TO LEARN HOW TO LEARN. That is no longer true in the Public School system! In fact, the NCLB (No Child Left Behind) program of the government does exactly the reverse! Each school and each Teacher is now REQUIRED to get their students to get good results from some very specific Nationalized tests! So, what should a Teacher do? Teach the students to learn how to THINK and to figure out things? Or to MEMORIZE specific things that will certainly show up on the standardized tests?

Think about the concept of "creativity". There is NO PLACE for it given the current rules and regulations regarding getting government funds! If a student HAD any creativity to begin with, it is now necessarily crushed, because that student MUST spend his or her time in learning how to do well on a STANDARDIZED test! See the dark humor in that? The smartest, most creative kids are kept from developing those specific abilities, in order to do well enough on the Standardized tests to enable that School to receive government money. (Those students would have done great on those Standardized tests anyway!)

When they grow up, those kids will not know HOW to think, and will instead totally depend on being able to "look things up" and then totally relying on others (probably foreign-born) who ARE able to think! This is horrendous!

The NCLB Program is allegedly meant to provide an advantage for students. Sadly, it does just the reverse for most students, and at best might only benefit a small fraction of very, very low-achievers.

As long as our government believes that a rigid structure of Standardized tests is to be the basis of the American Public School system, few kids will ever be able to compete with even medium-achievers who were educated in other countries! Can there be anything more sad?

From time to time, some new approach is highly publicized as being the SOLUTION to all the Educational problems. In pilot projects, nearly any such idea appears to work fine! That is primarily because phenomenal amounts of money are spent on each student! The news reports never mention that, only the impressive gains of some classroom of kids. But if the reasoning is to spend $100,000 per year for each student, I have a different suggestion! Have the government hire a personal tutor, full time, to LIVE WITH each student (for maybe $30,000 per student). FAR cheaper, and I guarantee that the results would be impressive!

As long as this government mind-set is in place, I can only recommend that parents send their kids to Private Schools or even to live in nearly ANY other industrialized country, where their kids would receive a far better education, and actually learn to THINK in the process!

Regarding trying to fix the current problems, wow! Teachers and students and school administrators have become conditioned to this current structure, and it is hard to imagine that they will easily or quickly change. Even if improvements are made, it may take 12 years before they start actually having effects. This is essentially saying that all of the kids currently in American Public Schools probably have no chance of actually learning to learn there! I hate to say that those millions of kids are close to being "wasted" but it seems pretty close to being true.

Long ago, a High School History Teacher might try to enliven his students by getting them to re-enact the French Revolution, to see if the students would do the same things as actually happened. Creative experimentation. Now, no History Teacher could afford the time to do such a thing, because it would not contribute toward their doing well on those Standardized, multiple choice tests! Long ago, I taught Earth Science in High School. I would often start off a class with a challenging question. One day, I asked each class to think of some way of proving that the Earth was round, without being allowed to leave that city, and without trusting TV or books. From their own experience, somehow, they had to think of solutions.

Each classroom was FILLED with active minds, where most of the students (not all) were actively trying to meet the challenge I put forth to them. Take a break from reading this and consider it a challenge to you! It if FUN and it is CHALLENGING and it MAKES you use your mind!

In some classes, someone would raise their hand and describe some idea that I happened to know was wrong. I COULD have said something, and gotten the discussion to a better direction. But I felt it was better to simply allow the class to proceed with the discussion. In every single class where that happened, the students eventually realized that that idea would not work. There seemed to be a collective sense of accomplishment! In only one class did a student ask me why I did not say it was wrong. And I answered that I thought that the class learned a lot more ABOUT LEARNING by thoroughly investigating that wrong idea.

See the point? Modern science Teachers could not "waste a day" with such foolishness, when there were FACTS, FACTS, FACTS to get the kids to memorize! If modern science Teachers did that very often, their students would do POORLY on the Standardized Tests of facts! And the Teacher would even be identified as a poor Teacher! In my opinion, such Teachers are the ONLY HOPE for the American Public School system.

Sadly, the people who make Laws and who decide on what government programs will be funded, have no idea of what goes on inside an actual classroom. They tend to be very old people, and of rich families, so they tend never to have personally experienced the amazing goings-on in a public school classroom today. I can tell them that there are virtually NO opportunities for students to ACTUALLY HAVE AN ACTIVE MIND, certainly less than a minute total in any schoolday. They are supposed to sit and memorize, which some kids can do well and others cannot. There is NO future in the current structure. It is all just damaging kids, and it also quickly discourages new Teachers, who actually started out believing that they would be able to "change young minds!". There turns out to be no way that they actually can!
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nealpar



Joined: 25 Oct 1998
Posts: 624

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregorvass, I don't disagree with what your wife, Lisa, wrote regarding education in this country. Maybe you ought to move over and let her represent you on all posts from here on. Razz
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gregorvass



Joined: 21 Nov 1996
Posts: 1113
Location: Behind You

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not write this shit !

Google and click and paste............I would never waste my time!
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091100



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My three most important issues are illegal trespassers, the countries security and health care. Since Romney is the only candidate who has the back bone to pleadge to make them go home and get in line, he's my man. Hillary and McCain are scary self serving liers and Obama has zero experience. If I thought the Dems would actually put a health care plan in effect that would SIGNICANTLY benifit the middle clas, ME, I would have to take a hard look at them. Unfortunately I suspect any thing they would do would only benefit the welfare people and the illegals I have no hope for health care reform.
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nealpar



Joined: 25 Oct 1998
Posts: 624

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregorvass wrote:
I did not write this shit !

Google and click and paste............I would never waste my time!


Laughing

Thank you for taking the time to even do that!

By the way, time to really shut up. Check out what's forming for this afternoon at County.

Are we not men? Or are we DEVOID?
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2385
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Are we not men? Or are we DEVOID?"

you're a man? wow, great disguise.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2406

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

091100 wrote:
Since Romney is the only candidate who has the back bone to pleadge to make them go home and get in line, he's my man.


Romney, huh? Lets see...a president that really, truly believes in fairy tales. Thats what it takes to be a Mormon, or any believer for that matter. We've already had seven plus years of that crap with Bush's Born Againism. I would prefer my government officials be grounded in a reality where 2+2 = 4, not 5. But, alas, anyone running for president stands zero chance if he (or she) professes anything less than a rock solid belief in the divinity of Jesus. When will we ever rise above our caveman fears and superstitions? And Huckleberry? You get all that, plus a 3.000 year old Grand Canyon. And you want these guys running our country? I'm gonna hold my secular nose and vote for Brother Obama.
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2385
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'm gonna hold my secular nose and vote for Brother Obama."

Anyone but Hillary.
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FredBGG



Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 725

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

windoggie wrote:
091100 wrote:
Since Romney is the only candidate who has the back bone to pleadge to make them go home and get in line, he's my man.


Romney, huh? Lets see...a president that really, truly believes in fairy tales. Thats what it takes to be a Mormon, or any believer for that matter. We've already had seven plus years of that crap with Bush's Born Againism. I would prefer my government officials be grounded in a reality where 2+2 = 4, not 5. But, alas, anyone running for president stands zero chance if he (or she) professes anything less than a rock solid belief in the divinity of Jesus. When will we ever rise above our caveman fears and superstitions? And Huckleberry? You get all that, plus a 3.000 year old Grand Canyon. And you want these guys running our country? I'm gonna hold my secular nose and vote for Brother Obama.


I can't agree more!
Nothing wrong with religion when it is you own somewhat private belief.
Now by that I don't mean you have to hide it, just don't like those that shove it in your face or up the ass of politics.
I am a non believer as far as religions go, but at the same time I have volonteered for a few religious groups that welcome the help of "atheists"
and arn't in the buisness of converting everyone.

Consider this.... evangelists (and other rightwing religious groups) are all about evangelizing and Mormons are running around the world trying to convert everyone that doesn't realize who they are before they start the talk.... so you sort of have a kind of religious imperialism comming out of this good ol' USA. Now giving the power of the presidency to these people is not a good idea.

One last thing on god ..... that is the Judeo, Christian, Mormon etc god..
So these religious people continually claim that god loves us all and is omnipotent.... doesn't that sort of make him a sadistic ass?
If he is so omnipitent how about a few miricals today huh... there seemed to be a shit load of them 2000 years ago. How about just a little mirical like wispering a cure into the ear of a scientist for muscular distrophy...
How about dropping a thousand cases of maleria vaccine into areas of Africa and give some of those little babies a chance to become voluntary believers. How a bout a sign...yea a nice fancy apearence of the madonna or even just here husband to warn of a psunami on it's way... hey I'm not asking for much, no premonition neccessary, just warn warn us when it satarts and is visable from the heavens and give the poor victims a chance to run.
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