Angry fisherman at Sherman Island County Park - Playpen

[madspaniard]

common sense, that's what this guy is lacking, he may have a right to go fishing in the Playpen but it is not going to be pleasant or productive when windsurfers are out sailing with all the fins going fast underwater, he's got the whole levee to fish from, why the Playpen, he's just looking out for trouble.

[Jrobb]

[coachg]

A great spot is the access, just outside the county park. You rig behind the leavy so there is a wind shadow. Cross the road, walk over sand bags and lauch. You avoid the crowded conditions of the playpen.

Coachg

[tsokat]

[swchandler]

Sounds like the situation at the park at end of the road (I've never elected to drive that far myself) is not favoring windsurfers and kiters, as it seems quite clear that fisherman have all the inherent rights to do whatever they want. I guess the fact that the parks' official position is out in the open leaves no question that the park is not a friendly spot that's truely interested our unique sports. Why spend money on a concern that doesn't value our business?

Frankly, for many years I've always enjoyed the scene at Powerlines and never saw the need to venture further. I've often wondered why so many windsurfers drive right on by. You couldn't ask for a friendlier group of folks to share with. Also, the way things are scattered out, there is plenty of room for different users to optimize their interests without any untoward interference.

[csorens]

I don't know where they come off saying that fisherman have priority at the access. They (Sac County) advertise right on their website how good it is for Windsurfing (and kiting):

http://www.sacparks.net/our-parks/sacramento-river-delta/index.html

If that isn't a promotion for Windsurfing their, then what is? It's obvious that they expect us all to coexist peacefully. I think it is some kind of power trip that this guy has and he is deliberately going out of his way to block Windsurfers from launching. I have seen fisherman behaving this way before. Luckily they have always been pretty polite to me as long as I try to avoid lines, but it is becoming increasingly hard to do so. I try to be polite to them, but it's pretty annoying when they're right in the middle of the launch area (a very small section of beach)! I guess kiters don't have as much of a problem since they don't have a skeg like we do.

And to those of you who say the sign is better or the Powerlines is better: Fine, but I like the access! I'm not going to move just because some guy is on a power trip. If we could just eliminate those pesky fisherman and kiters (just kidding!)....

[andylong1]

Interesting thread. It's been years since I sailed in that area of Sherman Island. What a great way of ruining a wonderful day of windsurfing; having to deal with an asshole like Mad Tony. Thought I'd give you all some specifics on what you can and can't do when dealing with different levels of threat as this is something I’ve studied in depth for the sake of myself, my wife and my daughter when it comes to various threat levels.

It's all about the escalation of the threat of force. For example, if it's just words between the two of you, nothing can be done. You can’t have anything done to Tony via the cops if it’s just words. However, if Tony takes a swing at you, he has escalated the situation to a threat of physical force and now you can respond in similar fashion. In other words, if Tony takes a swing at you and you respond and beat the crap out of him with your fists (no weapons), you are within your rights. Just make sure you have a witness.

However, if Tony takes a swing at you, or even punches you and is bloodying you up in a fist fight and you pull out a knife, YOU have escalated the threat of force and now have moved it to deadly force. Tony would now be within his rights to pull out his own knife and cut you to ribbons.

Although a knife and a gun seem like they are different levels of force, they really are not. They are both applications of deadly force. So if Tony pulled a knife on you AND approached you and chased you around your car with it and you genuinely felt that your life was in danger, you could pull out a gun and shoot him.

The problem is if you are in some sort of park where guns are absolutely forbidden. Then you've got problems. And it sounds like you are. That's California for you. However, it's been shown that the vast majorities of encounters like this (even with tiny, little women facing a big, bad dude) immediately come to an end when the gun is pulled out and pointed at the would be assailant. The assailant is stopped with no shots fired. Thugs may be brutal but they are not dumb.

But here’s where it gets tricky. If Tony is chasing you around your vehicle with a knife, screaming bloody murder that he’s going to kill you, and you pull out a gun and point it at him and he suddenly stops and turns around, that moment that you felt that your life (or the life of a loved one) was in mortal danger has now passed. In a split second it has passed. So now you CAN NOT use deadly force anymore. Same thing if you pulled out a bigger knife than Mad Tony has. If he stops attacking you, you can’t stab him as he is beginning his retreat. By the way. never, EVER get into a knife fight with anyone. Meaning he pulls a knife, you pull a knife and you go at it. The only thing that will happen is you will get cut. All over. And one cut in a major artery and you will bleed to death in minutes. No one will be able to stop it.

So with this in mind, how do you defend yourself in a park, in California with the politically correct morons at the controls where the rights of the assailants trump those of us windsurfing victims? By having a heavy, oak staff (like a cane) on hand.

Heavy duty, manufactured canes made for the express purpose of being a weapon are actually illegal in California (isn’t this a great state we live in?). So just go to some wood shop, have a guy make a roughed out one on a wood lathe, scuff it up, dirty it up then keep it on hand.

Now you have an encounter with Mad Tony. It moves from words to physical posturing. You let him escalate the threat of force by letting him brandish his knife. He has now threatened you with deadly force. Now you are within your rights to defend yourself with the same level of force. But instead of pulling out a gun and getting yourself in all kinds of trouble, you pull out your stout, wooden cane. The great thing about a cane is you can keep almost anybody with a knife at bay several feet away from you. If it comes to an assault by Mad Tony, one good swing with the cane will break hands, arms and even legs. One well placed blow and it’s over.

So what have we done here? You and your loved ones are now safe, you’ve neutralized a deadly threat (without escalating on your side to a level of deadly force by pulling out a gun) and you’ve only broken bones, not killed anyone. Because we don’t want to kill anyone, only stop the threat. And when the cops ask what happened, you tell them, “He pulled out a knife, I felt that my life was in danger so I hit him with my stick.” And because you’ve got witnesses, they can vouch for you. Always make sure you have witnesses. And never be the one to escalate the threat of force. Let the bad guy do it first.

Sorry about the morbid subject matter but I heard some of you guys talking about guns and blasting the guy. I know you probably weren’t completely serious but unless you are careful with the way force is escalated, especially in California, you may find yourself behind bars, even though Mad Tony started it.

Happy sailing.

[joewindsurf]

WOW... LOL, you guys are really anayzing the heck out of this.

You said the guy is a buck twenty! Right ? Just tell him he's fishing at your spot and he's gonna have to go some where else! Or just ignore him, literally pretend he's not standing there.

Sooner or later he's going to pull a knife on the wrong guy. Sounds like its just a matter of time..

PS.
I met some special forces types that kite.. I wonder what would happen if some nut pulled a knife on them.. makes you wonder.

[swchandler]

One has to remember that a confrontation might occur with a female windsurfer, which obviously changes the perspective of everything.

Really, I'm glad that Andylong1 raised the detail scenarios that he did. No one wants life threatingly confrontations, but a bit of clariity regarding legal rights in such circumstances is super useful.

The concept of the stick is awesome. I regularly use a stick while beachcoming, and although it's more for balance in the cobbles and other supporting scenarios, the idea of protection hasn't escaped my mind here. I've already thought about the value of a stick in difficult confrontations, particularly with animals such as dogs and large cats. Truely, I'm grateful for the specifics.

[gregorvass]

I own a sherman-tank.

What sail size do you guys recommend?