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Accidents at the Hatch?
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jse



Joined: 17 Apr 1995
Posts: 1298
Location: Marin

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jimoak"]
jse wrote:
isobars wrote:
jimoak wrote:
I know it's true, but sensible it is not. Just because some kiter or WSer on a Formula board can outpoint another sailor on a given reach shouldn't give the former a right to force the upwind guy to bail. The two guys who have tried that on me over the years learned two things:
1. I had never heard that stupid, illogical "rule" at the time. (What's the outpinched upwind guy supposed to do, jump in the damn water or stall and try to stay on his sinker while "King of the Road" cruises through? Up your ass, King; you can freaking bear off or eat fiberglass. You don't get your half AND my half of the river. You can go lower and I can't go any higher, so YOU'RE the more maneuverable craft; maneuver. )
2. You're in my blind spot if you're coming up behind me and from my lee. It's all on you to avoid me, Bud.


If I'm coming up from behind you and from your lee, I don't have ROW because I don't have overlap. This is a well known rule in sailboat racing, and I believe it applies to windsurfing as well. Once I have overlap, I can force you upwind. This rule also implies that until I have overlap, you can force me downwind. (Note: this aspect of luffing rule doesn't often come into play, because in sailboat racing, luffing rules usually happen on an upwind leg, and who wants to bear off on their way to the windward mark.) So, Mikey, you have a very small window in which to make me eat fiberglass, but it's there for you.

Steve


jse, You miss quoted me. My attitude toward sailing is not at all like what was quoted. You quoted isobars.
Jim


Sorry Jim, I thought i was quoting Mike, but apparently I need to study up on quoting. Yeah it was Isobars I was directing my post to.

Steve
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14054

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottwerden wrote:

1. best thing to do is just sail defensively.
2.And go where the crowds aint.


1. That's no fun.

2. I once wrote a magazine article on exactly that topic, but it went in the trash can; too many secrets spilled. Yer on yer own. '-)

\m/
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blireef



Joined: 20 Jun 2001
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After 30 years of running boats I can tell you that the "law of gross tonnage" applies and trumps all other rules. The big boat always comes out better. Great discussion though and all of you raise points that are better brought out into the open and talked about. So don't put yourself in a position to hit or be hit if you can help it.. And NEVER starboard tack a vessel larger than you... jim
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surfzephyr1



Joined: 11 Jul 2000
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Downwind sailor has right of way over upwind sailor, irregardless if you are on port or starboard. Think about it, unless you have eyes in the back of your head, or are sailing your reach with your head turned upwind, how could you expect to see an upwind sailor who is outside your peripheral vision. The doc had the right of way, hand down!
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 617
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God Bless the Lawnmowers. They keep the sport/industry alive. I always give up the ROW to show what a courteous sailor I am. I can turn whenever and wherever I want. I almost never sail all the way across the river so a few extra turns to avoid a clipping is no big deal to me. No worries.

People who don't sail, ask me why the ones that do just seem to sail back and forth across the river. I could tell them it's because it's all they are able to do. That making turns on the Swell stuff isn't as easy as it looks. Instead I say it's because you can go the fastest that way.

If you traveled a long way to sail at the Gorge you don't want to go home and tell your friends that you sailed at Home Valley, Mosier or Bingen. Does anyone sail at Bingen anymore???
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ciobst



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: lawn mower! Reply with quote

Anh, It has to be your fault. This is ridiculous. I am watching college football, and not mowing the lawn, or painting anything, or riding any swell.

I am proud of your definitive account of the event, and discouraged by the fight over who gets to run into who. Sailors, meaning everyone, should know where others are on the water, and make sure you don't run into anyone else, period. Open your eyes, whether you are on port or starboard, or if you are "riding a wave".

The ROW has nothing to do with allowing anyone to "impact" anyone else, it is for racing purposes. It is all of our responsibility to avoid accidents, to the best of our ability. Accidents however, do happen.

I am going to start stand up paddle surfing now, at the event site, going back and forth, not up and down the river, so I don't get in anyone's way, I can't wait till I am on "starboard" (I guess that is going towards Oregon), and then I can paddle at anyone I want.

This forum seems to breed anger, and I for sure get more angry every time I read anything on the forum.

Love Willis
Go Blue
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srich



Joined: 19 May 2000
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow this is great! I have really learned a lot. Since I am over 200 lbs and usually sail a more floaty board than the lighter weights I have right of way by Gross Tonnage! When I find a nice rolling swell to ride I just turn on the swell and yell "I claim this wave" and now all the mowers can just gitouta my way.

My understanding is the ROW applies to vessels traveling in a straight line. So if you are carving swell you have a responsibility to not suddenly turn and T bone someone. I like to swell ride. I love the really big bowls. Yet, I am a mower. When I am not swell riding I am pointing and setting a course and running upwind (Unless I see some potential ramps and turn down wind to build a lil speed). I also accept the fact that less experienced back and forth sailers travel with swell riders and we all end up at the hatch or dougs or where ever. When its crowded at the hatch I end up down near Wells Island where the swell is plentiful and the riders thin out somewhat.

I try to point where the traffic is light in search of clear swell. If I see you catch a swell I will try to give you room to enjoy your ride. What gets me is the sailers that weave through very heavy traffic to get a ride. Or the ones that have to yell as they are riding to close to you so people won't hit them! If it happens on occasion thats one thing. But we all know there are certain sailers that are just plain dangerous!
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kmarasco



Joined: 17 Jan 2000
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: lawn mower! Reply with quote

ciobst wrote:
...
The ROW has nothing to do with allowing anyone to "impact" anyone else, it is for racing purposes. It is all of our responsibility to avoid accidents, to the best of our ability. Accidents however, do happen.
...

While the ROW rules apply to racing, with a few more rules added in, these rules are actually dictated by US marine law. You can educate yourself about these on the US Coast Guard site.

If you are ever involved in an on the water collision and happen to be sued, which ain't out of the realm of possibility in our society, you would certainly lose your court case if it was show that you acted in violation of these laws. These are laws that pertain to watercraft as traffic laws apply to vehicles on the road.


Last edited by kmarasco on Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sailworksman



Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: ROW rules Reply with quote

Here's the corrected link to the Coast Guard website:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm

The relevant Rule 12 for sailing vessels states:
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

1. when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
2. when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
3. if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.
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WMP



Joined: 30 May 2000
Posts: 607

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure confused with all those technical terms. Sure would be helpful to have a booklet full of graphics & diagrams showing all different scenario's that cause collisions on the water, along with do's and dont's..... things that make sense and universally accepted both in gorge windsurfing AND ocean windsurfing.... so there's no questions about ROW. How about a waterproof encyclopedia /dictionary of ROW rules & terms that we can study while we're out there bored out of minds on the water so's we can look up every situation as it happens?

Last edited by WMP on Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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