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Accidents at the Hatch?
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kmarasco



Joined: 17 Jan 2000
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: ROW rules Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
...
But this whole discussion, as it always does, brings up a key question: why must people who sail in straight lines take up valuable, rare swell space?...

You make a misguided assumption. Just because a sailor happens to traveling in a straight line at the time that another sailor decides to ride a swell does not mean that the sailor that is sailing straight is having a session simply to go in straight lines and take up rare swell space. My passion is to ride swell , yet I often sail straight looking for the perfect piece of swell. Everybody sails straight some of the time. I'd say most of the time.

It is incumbent upon me to look for a clear path before altering my direction to set up on a swell. If I cut someone off in the process, and I can't say that hasn't happened more than once, it's my fault and I am responsible for any collision. Fortunately, in the times that I've errored, the other sailor or myself has been able to make a last second adjustment to prevent the collision, but I have been lucky in that respect.

I've missed many swell opportunities in order to yield ROW to an oncoming or leward sailor. It's a real bummer to see a surging swell and have to pass it by, but that is just the price that we pay to keep everyone safe on the water. To do other wise is simply irresponsible.
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anhkancook



Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 7
Location: hood river, oregon

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:50 am    Post subject: accidents at the hatch Reply with quote

fist of all.. the only reason i posted anything was because i didnt want anyone to think there was some death from windsurfing...

second, to assume that someone is intentionally out there to mow the lawn is ludicrous... i believe everyone sailing at the hatch or swell city is there for a reason...the swell..

there is no pointing blame here.. i am not looking for someone to pay for my gear or medical expenses...

lastly, these comments about "getting in the way of swell sailors".. how can i get in the way, when we are both on port tach, he behind my back.. is it my responsibility to have eyes behind my head to see that he is catching a swell and a collision is inevitable?

again.. it was an accident... no one is dead... lets drop it!
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WMP



Joined: 30 May 2000
Posts: 616

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, this thread sorta got morphed into Swell Rider vs. Lawn Mower pissing match. I certainly didn't intend it to go there.... I'm just glad you're alive, doc !!

Dunno what the big deal is, I can catch some pretty big air on my lawn tractor. Fact is, I've created moguls all over my property here so's I can feel like I'm 'riding the swell' when I mow.
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jse



Joined: 17 Apr 1995
Posts: 1299
Location: Marin

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="isobars"]
jimoak wrote:
I know it's true, but sensible it is not. Just because some kiter or WSer on a Formula board can outpoint another sailor on a given reach shouldn't give the former a right to force the upwind guy to bail. The two guys who have tried that on me over the years learned two things:
1. I had never heard that stupid, illogical "rule" at the time. (What's the outpinched upwind guy supposed to do, jump in the damn water or stall and try to stay on his sinker while "King of the Road" cruises through? Up your ass, King; you can freaking bear off or eat fiberglass. You don't get your half AND my half of the river. You can go lower and I can't go any higher, so YOU'RE the more maneuverable craft; maneuver. )
2. You're in my blind spot if you're coming up behind me and from my lee. It's all on you to avoid me, Bud.


If I'm coming up from behind you and from your lee, I don't have ROW because I don't have overlap. This is a well known rule in sailboat racing, and I believe it applies to windsurfing as well. Once I have overlap, I can force you upwind. This rule also implies that until I have overlap, you can force me downwind. (Note: this aspect of luffing rule doesn't often come into play, because in sailboat racing, luffing rules usually happen on an upwind leg, and who wants to bear off on their way to the windward mark.) So, Mikey, you have a very small window in which to make me eat fiberglass, but it's there for you.

Steve
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Bugaboo



Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only true and universally accepted ROW rule is "I always have the right of way."

Keep your eyes open and when it looks you're heading for an incident, use common sense to avoid it. Been sailing for 15 years with only one incident and both us agreed that it was unavoidable, given the circumstances (we both took evasive action to avoid a third-party who was, in the opinion of us colliders, at fault)

All of your arguments about ROW rules is foolish for the simple reason that its windsurfing- there are no rules. I bet that there is not one of you who hasn't "held course" one day and then veered off the next under similar circumstances.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14486

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jse wrote:
If I'm coming up from behind you and from your lee, I don't have ROW because I don't have overlap. ... Once I have overlap, I can force you upwind.


Not if I can't point any higher, as more than one sailor has discovered. You can't get blood out of a turnip, and at that point the more maneuverable craft -- the guy below -- has the primary onus to avoid the other, according to the "prime directive" of ROW. Besides, anyone's right to force another out of his way ends at imminent contact.

Just last week some guy coming from somewhere behind me waited until he was beside me and two seconds from centerpunching me to warn me of his presence. If I had had the total inability to control my board's direction as he did his, we'd have collided before he took his next breath. He'd have overlapped me about the time he hit me. He's not THAT unusual, and shouldn't be out in crowds if he can't control his gear any better than that.

\m/


Last edited by isobars on Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14486

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: accidents at the hatch Reply with quote

anhkancook wrote:
to assume that someone is intentionally out there to mow the lawn is ludicrous... i believe everyone sailing at the hatch or swell city is there for a reason...the swell..


and

kmarasco wrote:
isobars wrote:
...
But this whole discussion, as it always does, brings up a key question: why must people who sail in straight lines take up valuable, rare swell space?...

You make a misguided assumption. Just because a sailor happens to traveling in a straight line at the time that another sailor decides to ride a swell does not mean that the sailor that is sailing straight is having a session simply to go in straight lines


Not an assumption; rather, a categorization. MANY people sail ONLY in straight lines, on the swell, at the Hatch, Swell, Rufus, Roosevelt, etc. That's their legal right, but it leaves them little to no room, IMO, to complain when someone surprises them by deviating from straight lines. Just because some sailor's board is pointed at some tree off in the distance doesn't give him claim to all the water between him and that tree (or to his wake just behind him, as some feel). I've seen "lawn mowers" complain that they can't tell where swell riders are going next (Duh! Even the swell rider doesn't know where he's going next; how could an observer?). I've even seen people whine about how others come ashore ("You're supposed to slow down offshore and slog in" or "You're supposed to luff your sail, slow to a stop, and then step off your board"). Yeah, right! The primary "supposta" in this sport is "You're not supposta hit anybody", with the corollary "or cut anybody off". (Of course, simply being on the water at the Hatch on a windy day often violates the corollary.) The rest is optional.

I've heard both of these after coming ashore. Guess which better reinforced both their stoke and mine:
"I can't tell what you're going to do next [as though I do]" with a glare and a whine, or
"Man, you enjoy the HELL out of sailing, don't you?" accompanied by a high five.

\m/
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jimoak



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jse"]
isobars wrote:
jimoak wrote:
I know it's true, but sensible it is not. Just because some kiter or WSer on a Formula board can outpoint another sailor on a given reach shouldn't give the former a right to force the upwind guy to bail. The two guys who have tried that on me over the years learned two things:
1. I had never heard that stupid, illogical "rule" at the time. (What's the outpinched upwind guy supposed to do, jump in the damn water or stall and try to stay on his sinker while "King of the Road" cruises through? Up your ass, King; you can freaking bear off or eat fiberglass. You don't get your half AND my half of the river. You can go lower and I can't go any higher, so YOU'RE the more maneuverable craft; maneuver. )
2. You're in my blind spot if you're coming up behind me and from my lee. It's all on you to avoid me, Bud.


If I'm coming up from behind you and from your lee, I don't have ROW because I don't have overlap. This is a well known rule in sailboat racing, and I believe it applies to windsurfing as well. Once I have overlap, I can force you upwind. This rule also implies that until I have overlap, you can force me downwind. (Note: this aspect of luffing rule doesn't often come into play, because in sailboat racing, luffing rules usually happen on an upwind leg, and who wants to bear off on their way to the windward mark.) So, Mikey, you have a very small window in which to make me eat fiberglass, but it's there for you.

Steve


jse, You miss quoted me. My attitude toward sailing is not at all like what was quoted. You quoted isobars.
Jim
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14486

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: accidents at the hatch Reply with quote

anhkancook wrote:
it was an accident... no one is dead... lets drop it!


That's certainly your prerogative. The rest of us might prefer to learn something from a discussion of the issues it raises.

\m/
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 220

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading this thread I am amazed that there are not more accidents at the Hatch or any of the other popular wave/swell spots on the river. There is certainly no clear consensus on what the 'rules' are and no agreement amongst those that sail the hatch a lot on what the rules might in fact be, so how can anyone be expected to know what he/she should do on the river?

Personally, I care less on exactly what the rules are and care more that everyone knows what they are and follows them. If the rule is a BAF'er has ROW over a swell-rider, hey I can live with that (but not like it). Just get something in place that everyone knows. Right now we are pretty far from that. Meanwhile, best thing to do is just sail defensively. And go where the crowds aint.
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