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Accidents at the Hatch?
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mik377



Joined: 05 Jun 2005
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I agree from a common sense standpoint. It amazes when I see almost everyone sailing in the same direction (back and forth) on a crowded day and then someone tries to swell ride across the flow of traffic. Its insane, no matter who has the ROW they're just asking for it.
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jimoakes



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WMP wrote:
jimoak wrote:
sailor UPWIND must give way to the down wind sailor


Sure thing, but the problem is upwind sailor doesn't always SEE the downwind sailor because of the blind spot created by their sail. ROW rules only apply if both sailors SEE each other.... otherwise, if one can't see the other, how can they apply ROW rules? Bottom line in ROW rules should be to do whatever it takes to avoid a collision..... NOT to insisit on being ROW god.


I agree it is hard to see through the sail but you must do that to avoid collisions. You must look around and through the sail.
The bottom line is you are responsible if you hit and injure someone if you were up wind. It has been proven in court in a serious windsurfing injury case.

I do agree that if someone is upwind of me riding swell or not I try to look to be sure they see me and if they can't I give them room, but they really don't have ROW according the rules they go by in court. It only makes sense.
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WaveSlayer



Joined: 25 May 2001
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mik377 wrote:
Yeah I agree from a common sense standpoint. It amazes when I see almost everyone sailing in the same direction (back and forth) on a crowded day and then someone tries to swell ride across the flow of traffic. Its insane, no matter who has the ROW they're just asking for it.


If it's a swell day, and you want to mow the lawn, go to the event site.
Everyone should yield to an eastbound sailor so he (or she) can continue the ride and have a fk'ing blast! Forget ROW, chill bro, and let 'em have fun.
And another thing... if you're not gonna bang a left down the swell, don't pinch off the port sailor that wants to (and go to the event site and learn how to ride!).
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1288
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear about the accidents. Glad everyone survived.

The lawnmowers hurt my neck last weekend. I must have twisted it around too far trying to make sure I didn't get mowed down or T Bone anyone.

When I asked at Windwing for the Interface Swell because they were swells and not waves he said I was stupid and told me to leave the shop.

Hey Pete, thanks for the berries. They're GREAT!

Ya I know my post is stupid. I'm leaving.
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telus01



Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just did a search on "windsurfing right of way".
Several sites (including commentary from Maui) state that in waves, the sailor coming in (i.e. ON THE WAVE) must give way to the sailor heading out. This is a hangover from surfing where the mobile surfer on the wave must avoid the slow moving person paddling out. Even the Professional Windsurfing Association wave sailing competition rules support this (rule 3.9.1 (a)). However, normal courtesy is for the outgoing sailor to allow the sailor on the wave to go for it where possible.
So being on the wave does not give you special rights. The wave rider must keep clear, but hopefully courtesy will allow the non-rider to give space to the rider where possible.
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mackwind



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: ROW rules Reply with quote

Most of these responses here are correct. Can't say I've ever heard of row going to the sailor on a wave. That's a new one.

I come from a sailors background with a lot of racing experience, right of way goes to starboard and leeward sailors. Overtaking boats/boards must give way. Same tack leeward has rights. Always leave the other sailor an opportunity to avoid you. If you are carving down a wave don't expect the leeward sailor to giveway or see you.

If it's so crowded you can't turn down any wave you want to then it's too crowded to begin with.

I had my own bad experience last month at the Hatch where I carved down a sweet huge swell going from starboard to port only to realize I was carving into a leeward starboard tack board with no intention of riding the swell, so I just pushed my boom into the wave to stop. Frustrating, but no harm done, wasn't even a close call. What amazed me though was the guy who I carved into came back to appolgize for cutting me off my surf. Seemed a little above and beyond to me, but appreciated.

After that I vowed to find more open water before commiting to taking a swell for a ride. Too frustrating and risky to believe everyone out there knows the rules of the road, at least the way I am used to following them.

Keep it safe and have fun.

Andy
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: ROW rules Reply with quote

mackwind wrote:
Can't say I've ever heard of row going to the sailor on a wave. That's a new one.


Wow. That's been among the most oft-quoted "rule" I've seen in hundreds of ROW posts, right up near "starboard rules".

But this whole discussion, as it always does, brings up a key question: why must people who sail in straight lines take up valuable, rare swell space? They have the whole flat ocean or river or lake to BAF on; why clog up the swell, especially when there are swell-riders on it? Swell (or waves) is the only reason many people sail, but the BAFfers can sail any old time and any old place there's some wind. If they choose to clog up the swell, they can expect to feel like the proverbial long-tailed cat in the room full of rocking chairs, 'cause swell (and wave) riders are gonna rock. Even assuming they look before leaping (or slashing or jibing), it's prudent and considerate to stay so freaking far away from them that they couldn't possibly hit you no matter how suddenly they change direction 90 to 180 degrees and dramatically increase their speed. IN PARTICULAR, do not follow them in their blind spot; it's just asking for an accident.

\m/
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WMP



Joined: 30 May 2000
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Mike, but I have become a little more gracious to those BAF'er types over the years... it just becomes a more peaceful planet when ya do that. I've even modified my sailing style at the Hatch to accommodate that BAF mindset.... although I don't sail Hatch very much as a result.

Interesting how our sport has evolved from 'sailboarding' (remember that label in the 70's & 80's ??) to 'windSURFING'. This indicates to me that we identify more with surfing than we do with sail boating. The rules of surfers are clear that wave riders have ROW.... I think it makes sense for our sport to go with that too.
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wmike



Joined: 20 Jan 2001
Posts: 207
Location: Maui

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found that as wind and the swell increases, the lawnmowers tend to go ashore and leave the swells to us. But at the hatch with so much flat water on the Oregon side I don't understand why the lawn mowers want to go through the swells in the fist place, except that they simply do not want to jibe until they run out of water. Now at the end of the season there is plenty of room for swell riding and jumping.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimoak wrote:
I still say the sailor UPWIND must give way to the down wind sailor .... It only makes sense. The upwind sailor has more ability to avoid a collision in a T- bone type collision. sailor UPWIND must give way to the down wind sailor ...
The bottom line is you are responsible if you hit and injure someone if you were up wind. It has been proven in court in a serious windsurfing injury case.

I do agree that if someone is upwind of me riding swell or not I try to look to be sure they see me and if they can't I give them room, but they really don't have ROW according the rules they go by in court. It only makes sense.


I know it's true, but sensible it is not. Just because some kiter or WSer on a Formula board can outpoint another sailor on a given reach shouldn't give the former a right to force the upwind guy to bail. The two guys who have tried that on me over the years learned two things:
1. I had never heard that stupid, illogical "rule" at the time. (What's the outpinched upwind guy supposed to do, jump in the damn water or stall and try to stay on his sinker while "King of the Road" cruises through? Up your ass, King; you can freaking bear off or eat fiberglass. You don't get your half AND my half of the river. You can go lower and I can't go any higher, so YOU'RE the more maneuverable craft; maneuver. )
2. You're in my blind spot if you're coming up behind me and from my lee. It's all on you to avoid me, Bud.

When in swell or waves, I'm going to have fun with it. If someone wants to insist on their ROW according to the IYRU racing rules, they need to remember that the guy with the ROW is obliged to hold his course. I'll gladly, eagerly give 'em the ROW every time I have that option, because that gives me the other 99.999% of the river to play on. You got port and me starboard as we close? Great; the minute I pick my board up from its starboard beam reach and set it down pointing it straight downwind and let the hammer down, YOU got ROW and YOU got to hold the straight line while I play to my heart's content. Win/Win.

And riding somebody's lee hip is just stupid, ROW or no ROW. It''s an obvious blind spot, and it's asking to stain your shorts when the upwind guy rips one off the lip. Ditto riding a guy's windward hip when he swerves upwind to pull a back loop and lands it perfectly ... on your head. Just get the hell away from people and give them room to play, and everybody will be happy. Again ... Wiin/Win.

\m/
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