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mkrasnoff



Joined: 10 Apr 2000
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nealpar, I thought you were still in your 20's (30 years in the US).
Dang, you European babes don't show your age.

Capeman - You liberal Weiner, where were you when we needed you during the last staircase political tribunal - Bushes vs the someone else please debates before the last presidential election. Brian and I were outgunned.

I can see the lack of local wind is changing the subject matter of our posts.
I second what NP said, we all need a salt water rinse to clear the brain. Bring on the wind and the waves.
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2387
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Nealpar did you ever throw rocks at russian tanks when you were a kid?
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rowena



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 166
Location: Mars satellite

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My parents were naturalized citizens from Australia and England. So being a child of immigrants, who has traveled extensively, I try to look at the United States somewhat objectively. I agree with you Nealpar about values in this country. Greed is foremost, the almighty dollar, and competition. It seems as if because of this, human decency and a sense of right and wrong has been slowly beaten out of us. What if the billions of dollars to fund the Iraq War went to education and helping overcome poverty and disease here? How wonderful would that be?

Europeans will be the first to tell you that average Americans, by and large, are almost childlike in their naivetť, generosity, and trust. Some would call them ignorant because they cannot see the deception and lies in the Bush/Cheney war machine, until you realize that because they are trustworthy, they WANT to believe the same of others, especially their nationís leaders. Most Americans have a real problem mistrusting others. Middle Americans have not developed the cynicism we see in big cities. Itís a charming trait, but extremely dangerous when Bush and company leads us into an illegal war.

Yet, with all that is wrong with this country, why is it that we cannot keep people from clamoring to come here? Because in most third world countries, life is plainly put, intolerable. Human nature is at its core selfish, destructive, animalistic, and cruel, breeding violent juntas and evil dictators. Millions of people would trade their misery for the opportunities here, even with all our problems, so fast your head would spin. Why? Itís about the freedom to succeed. Thatís what keeps the people coming. Europe canít really give you an appreciation of the United States and what it means to people living without freedom. Go to Africa, and suddenly the U.S. is absolute paradise.
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rowena



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 166
Location: Mars satellite

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. I'm waiting for daBull to enter this discussion. I know he has some strong opinions!

Vote for Hillary!

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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theq



Joined: 10 Apr 2000
Posts: 640

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am of like mind with capetonian and nealpar. We have no leaders that exhibit or the cajones to actually lead. Most of the problems this country is having, and is on a collision course with, are due to so few of our elected officials looking past the next election cycle (Yes, nealpar's "vision" ), and being willing to make statements that will make people uncomfortable. I mean they've got to be smart enough to see what so many of us are seeing. Aren't they?

Remember Warren Buffett getting press while he was advising Arnold, for mentioning that we might have to pay a bit more in taxes in order to cure systemic budget problems? Even the world's most successful investor, who has made billions from the system, was quickly "escorted" from the frontline of Arnold advisers. "For God's sake Warren, don't make Californians unfcomfortable for second. What are you trying to do?!" Isn't it at least worthy of discussion?

In the eighties I was ranting about the illegal immigration issues that are now in the fore. Wasn't that sort of obvious? Of course it was, but nobody wanted to eliminate the cheaper labor pool and people to buy their used stuff so that they could buy more new stuff. My family has been going nuts about how much money we send to China for 20 years. It's become impossible to live without sending your fair share to our Sino creditors. The writing has been on the walls, and it's been in English.

The real estate finance situation was an absolute no-brainer if you just took a minute to think about the types of loans that were being made. Nealpar and I had a few conversations about the "when", not "if", of that sh-t hitting the fan. Here we are. The same things happened in the eighties before the S&L meltdown. There were very few voices ( 80's Texas Representative Henry Gonzales was one.) warning about the types of things that were going on back then. There were some, but they were branded as kooks, and negative thinkers. You know the drill. Don't ever be the first one to mention the elephant in the room. If you do, you'll be forever the kook. They'll forget your warning once they all start trying to avoid being crushed.

The way Greenspan is going around trying to rewrite his history, and distance himself from our problems, you'd swear that he thought worse times were ahead. As I said on another MB, at 81, Greenspan should be thinking about a Teflon grave marker, one that the spit is easier to clean off. Time will tell.

Leaders don't want to lead. Americans don't seem to use their heads and ask for more from their leaders. Just tell us what the survey tells you that we want to hear. Just win baby. Everything is hunky-dory. It seems like we're in a stupidity loop.

I have some culpability here myself, as all I've wanted to do was go windsurfing, knowing how screwed up things are getting. Despite the fact that there are many worse than me, I am so f--ing spoiled. I sort of suck too ( I don't need any posted agreements to this) .

When comparing American republic to Rome at the time of the Caesars, Rep. Gonzalez said, " The Caesars weren't tyrannical. They were guys who wanted to be loved, like the president. But they exercised power unrestrained by a constitution, just like the president" (Bush Sr. at the time of the book's publication)

He goes on, "We have so traduced democracy, cut off the participatory side, that the people don't see any point. I find that the people can see through things. The people are there. But what can they do? When they have no choice between the two parties, no real choice between the overwhelming preponderance of the candidates." (Taken from "Who Will Tell the People-The betrayal of American democracy", by William Greider c.1992)

Bottom line: We don't allow leaders to get into a position to lead, because they may have somehow made us uncomfortable by speaking the truth. Who's fault is that?

Perhaps we should all take the opportunity in the off season to try and make a difference?


Oh no, now I've gotten started.
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2387
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: hell no we wont go Reply with quote

TheQ - you must have a rich wife because I know the real estate market has sucked for a while now.

Rowena - If Hillary is elected I will be the first in line with my hand out.

Our leaders may be greedy and short sighted but would you want to live anywhere else? If so then hey...what's stopping you? Perhaps you would prefer to live in a third world country where a voice of dissent will get you face down in a river with a bullet in your skull?

Do any of you remember who was in charge when the Viet Nam war started? That's right, the democrats. Who sent in the first advisors, JFK, who escalated the war, LBJ. Who got us out and ended the draft so that yours truely did not have to go? Trickey Dick - a republican.
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rowena



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 166
Location: Mars satellite

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JPBassking,

I am a daughter of immigrants, so I can relate to a lot of what you say concerning the freedoms we enjoy. Nothing is EVER black or white, just shades of gray...

However, LBJ wanted to get us out of Vietnam, which is why he fired Westmoreland, and turned to Clark, his new security advisor. It was because of Nixon that we stayed in the war despite his promises to leave during the 1968 Republican convention in Miami.

He refused to accept that Vietnam was not a "winnable" war, and so he bombed the hell out of it, as well as Laos and Cambodia, even though Congress had not authorized it, and it was an illegal action. The "surge" before the pull-out. Sound familiar?
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2387
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Rowena it's time to lock and load.

Do you not remember when LBJ came on TV and said, "I have asked General Westmoreland what he needs, and he has told me..." That's when the war escalated. Do you remember "Hey, hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today"?

Or how about "Peace with honor"? Nixon bombed the sh*t out of North Viet Nam to get them to return to the negotiating table. Nixon did his best to get us out of a war that he didn't start and without this country losing face.

As far as the war being un-winable we won every major battle we had against the North. So why didn't we win? I am told by my Vietnamese co-worker that had the U.S. continued bombing the North for another 2 weeks they would have given up. I guess we'll never know for certain.
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rowena



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 166
Location: Mars satellite

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LBJ broke ranks with Westmoreland over the escalation of the war. That's simply a historical fact.

When Nixon came "to the negotiating table" in what, 1974? It was with exactly the same terms that the Democrats begged him to present 4 years earlier---and before an additional 10,000 American deaths.

Painting Richard Nixon as a savior.... That's myopia if I've ever seen it.

And Watergate wasn't his fault. He was framed.
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2387
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Painting Richard Nixon as a savior.... That's myopia if I've ever seen it. "

Hey my lottery number was 5, I was 19 and 1A when Nixon abolished the draft. Say what you will about the man but I will always be greatful to him for that.

and yeah he was framed. Laughing
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