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dragged a kite in today (SF bay)
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andydavis



Joined: 11 Apr 1999
Posts: 268
Location: Point Isabel

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: The Law of Finds Reply with quote

Am I alone in thinking it should be "finders keeper losers weepers" for abandoned kites, sails etc? "Law of salvage", vs "Law of Finds". As I understand it (I'm not a lawyer), if a vessel is abandoned, then the salvor has the right of possession, but not ownership. The Salvor would have salvage rights, i.e., payment (...could be a six pack of beer). But for abandoned equipment or goods, say a boat hook, a container of sneakers, a fender, or...a kite, then the "Law of Finds" would apply.

I think, therefore, if you find an abandoned kite or a sail in the water, it's yours -- even if it's got somebody's name and phone number on it. Now personally, I would post to this forum just like Georg did, and simply offer it back to the guy who abandoned it, gratis. However, once the guy abandoned the kite, he abandoned ownership and should certainly show some major, major gratitude (i.e., money, a nice dinner, something like that) to get it back.
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dennis_c



Joined: 05 May 1998
Posts: 648
Location: Rio

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: The Law of Finds Reply with quote

andydavis wrote:
Am I alone in thinking it should be "finders keeper losers weepers"


I hope so. Sad
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andydavis



Joined: 11 Apr 1999
Posts: 268
Location: Point Isabel

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

knyfe wrote:
I think you are quite alone with that idea. If YOU loose your kite you want to have it back, right. There is always a good reason to let your kite out and it is also a good decision to save your ass for the sake of the kite. Support your buddies out there, otherwise you didn't get the essentials of a good kite community.

There is also no name / address / phone number on the kite therefore I posted it here. Always mark your stuff with a phone number !

G


I was really kind of writing to the guy who abandoned his kite, not the finder. (I should have put some emoticons in the original post...you read me wrong Embarassed ). I personally would do exactly like Georg. And, on the other hand, if I were ever forced to abandon my rig, I would be extremely grateful to have it returned, because I would have no expectations that someone should do so.

So my message to the guy who abandoned his kite is, Dude, I trust you will show some gratitude. Offer some money, gold coins, dinner, or some valuable reward...and if the noble Finder refuses, then insist. If he refuses again, insist again. Because the Finder is not returning your kite, he is giving you his property. My point is (the brotherhood of the sailing community aside) if someone, say a fisherman, finds an abandoned kite, then ...
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Meneely



Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i'm about to lose my kite or simply let it go due to a bad situation, i'm perhaps less likely to make a bad decision (ie stay with it) if I know there is a chance I'll get it back from a good samaritan. So I say give the kite back, although both sides of the argument have merit.
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Meneely



Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i'm about to lose my kite or simply let it go due to a bad situation, i'm perhaps less likely to make a bad decision (ie stay with it) if I know there is a chance I'll get it back from a good samaritan. So I say give the kite back, although both sides of the argument have merit.
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Meneely



Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i'm about to lose my kite or simply let it go due to a bad situation, i'm perhaps less likely to make a bad decision (ie stay with it) if I know there is a chance I'll get it back from a good samaritan. So I say give the kite back, although both sides of the argument have merit.
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Meneely



Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i'm about to lose my kite or simply let it go due to a bad situation, i'm perhaps less likely to make a bad decision (ie stay with it) if I know there is a chance I'll get it back from a good samaritan. So I say give the kite back, although both sides of the argument have merit.
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andydavis



Joined: 11 Apr 1999
Posts: 268
Location: Point Isabel

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: an abandoned kite is jetsam Reply with quote

"Jetsam" (as opposed to flotsam) has been voluntarily cast into the sea (jettisoned) by the crew of a ship, usually in order to lighten it in an emergency. My only point is, historically, legally (Ancient Brotherhood of Kiters and Mariners aside), the kite is jetsam -- it's no longer yours. If you are actively pursuing it, or have it under your control (in Maritime law that would be having a line on it) then it's not jetsam. Maybe that could be the case if you keep your eye on it and know where it is. But certainly, if it blows around for hours or days, it's been jettisoned.

However, even if it is no longer yours, you still may be liable for it as a menace to navigation -- say the strings tangled in someone's propeller and caused him to go aground... That may depend on whether the situation, which caused you to jettison the kite, was an emergency or life threatening. If there was a hurricane and you were forced to jettison, then your liability is probably low, but if it were a normal, sunny day and similar vessels were able to keep their equipment aboard and you jettisoned anyway, then I think you might be liable for the consequences of your action.

We get all the Maritime Salvage magazines at work... Surprised
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5761

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I've seen many a runaway kite that has been separated from the kiter, I was curious about the downed kite that might drag its owner to some untoward end. In the latter situation, wouldn't it be possible for the kiter to cut one of the lines, thereby preventing the kite from catching the wind and dragging its owner. This approach to the situation would ultimately allow the kiter to safely reel it in to deflate it?
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