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Do you think Kiters and Boarders can share The Hatch Safely?
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4rest



Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 18
Location: Gorge

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right on, I was hoping what I stated above at least helped with the uncertainty of an approaching kiter. We fold up pretty well in close quarters so we have a tendency to come pretty close to each other.

I found the whole event in question pretty horrifying and so did most of the guys on NWKite. The original poster of the story on NWKite was known for kicking the bee nest, so to speak, so people are a little skeptical. (Though more and more he's coming across as a liaison). I'm the only poor sap that came over to defend our honor, find out more, and possibly deal with it. To bad I came across as the village idiot.

Do you guys get into any type of rotation that we could fit into? Maybe I can take word back to home-base that you guys have a system that if we followed would help? Kiters will end up getting into a rotation to come in and out of the flat water areas at the Sandbar. We can have 7 to 8 kiters going at once.

So, any word on who this dude is so we (kiters) can deal with the situation?

tweeky wrote:
Forrest, I think your posts nails the whole problem or at least a big part of it unintentionally. I don't care and I bet no one else does either when your sport is a danger to you. Its when it becomes a danger to me that we have a problem, but again ("don't get so agro") its the "chill dude attitude". This is the fundamental problem. You think that when we windsurf, being put in danger by kiters is just par for the course. How about I grab my jet ski and buzz you at 40mph and 2 feet away. Guess jet skiers are used to the danger and don't get so argo about it.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4rest wrote:

1. The one constant thing I've noticed is that people that get lots of time on the water don't spend much time on these forums.

2. I guess kiters are just used to the danger our sport poses and don't get so aggro about it.

3. I think [Isobars] is spot on with what the actually problem is, Access.


tweeky wrote:

4. Forrest was bit by a dog at the spit not long ago, and when he posted a complaint about that on nwkite, it started an absolute war.

5. I've even had a little kid throw rocks big enough to do damage at my board while I getting ready to go out. The mom was right there, I asked her to please stop her child when one bounced right off my board, and her response was "oh, just mellow out".

6. I'm really surprised that people sailing the Hatch did not confront the kiter in question. There's little anyone can do after the fact. If the people who are actually suffering the transgression are not going to step up and take a stand, a forum isn't going to bring any justice to the situation.

7. A kiter might be grabbing a windsurfer, trying to make him crash and thinking its all in good fun . . . I've seen people pushed over the edge before, really, and when they snap, their wrath will fall on the closest, most convenient target, and will likely be disproportionate to the original transgression.


1. There are regulars in WSing forums who get 100, even 200, days a year on the water. Someone pegged my post tally at 10,000 8-10 years ago, and I sail almost every windy day I can find in the Gorge. It all depends on one's priorities; WSing and writing are #1 and #2 in my life, and CoachG and WMP obviously enjoys both, too.

2. Being landed on by a miscreant who deliberately launches giant jumps above moving crowds of people is not a danger inherent to the sport; it is reckless endangerment perpetrated by a microscopic contingent of criminal scofflaws who will bring down public and legal wrath on the sport. The deliberate, repeated aerial bombardment we watched for >20 minutes at Rufus was aggravated ADW, beyond any question.

3. Certainly more access would help relieve the crowding, but it wouldn't change the behavior of these sick individuals.

4. And as we know, dog bites requiring professional medical treatment must, by WA law, be reported to the police. When one idiot told me to "Chill, dude" when she was barely able to stop her unleashed pit bull attack on my wife and me, I told her her dog had one minute to live if he was left unleashed (in a park full of kids). She was packed up and gone almost that fast, astounded that I was willing to defend my wife and leashed dogs.

5. That's when you inform these idiots they are liable for any damage, the cost of which starts at several hundred dollars for perfect repair, lost time, hassle, travel expenses, etc. If that fails, as it did with one pair of idiots whose 3-year-old was playing on a strangers's rigged loose sail lying just upwind of a brick building in 30-kt winds, yell at the kid to stop it or else. These kids have obviously never been yelled at, and it stops them dead in their tracks. Sure the parents got upset at me. So? The sail is unharmed and the kid's blood isn't running down the side of the building.

6. There's plenty one -- or especially 10 -- can do after the fact, from talk to legal action to direct action. "A guy's wife was almost killed", and no one took action? The cops could not arrive fast enough to keep that guy out of the hospital, and no jury's going to convict. I was advised by a deputy sheriff to take direct action next time our neighbor threw a rock at her. . . as though I needed to be told that . . . and then call him.

7. Assault . . . "all in good fun"? Not to the perp, it won't be, not real time, not in the E.R., and not in criminal court. "Snap"? Defending one's self against an assault is not "snapping'; it's normal, legal, and proper. And you'd better believe response will be "disproportionate"; the criminal must not only be stopped in his tracks, but persuaded to the core that he must never even think of pulling $#!+ like that again. Then he goes to jail.

\m/
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tweeky



Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 256

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think Forrest missed my point completely. Every year the kiting attitude seems to get worse. Last year I passed a kiter on a broad reach, and he yelled at me "don't go under my lines dude!". Though I was downwind of him, I don't think I actually was under his lines. Today at the Event Site I had some macho kiter yelling at me that it was safer for me to go under his lines than sail in the clear upwind of him... I just don't get it, but I will not sail there again unless there is a really good reason for it.
"Snapping" and "All in good fun" was just my way of mellowing it out. If a kiter grabbed my board or boom while I was sailing, well, lets just say that I would assume he was trying to kill me, literally, and I would respond accordingly.
I can see from today that there is going to be a major incident at the Event Site, be collision, fight, or a mix of both, something bad is going to happen sooner or later. I think the people who are pretending "oh, its no big deal" are just kidding themselves, and more than likely there are going to have to be some drastic changes made in the future.
But if I was a kiter, I WOULD mellow and chill, because at the rate the sandbar is spreading, the Event Site bay will be filled in soon, and who knows, it may get abandoned to the kiters.
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GuyT



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Do you think Kiters and Boarders can share The Hatch Saf Reply with quote

rowenaman wrote:


What do you think - Can windsurfers and kiteboarders share the crowded jibe zone at The Hatch safely? Question


The answer is simply no. Seams kiters are getting more and more agressive at the Hatch. Guess we'll have to wait for an accident to happen until something is done.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gracie wrote:
the bingen marina has a nice jibeatoriam you should go check out


That's typical of Gracie's contributions, but her bottom line is apparently more telling: deliberately endangering the public is OK with her. Think how well that attitude bodes for the public acceptance or legal prospects of kiting at the Hatchery or any other public venue.

\m/
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jimoak



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Do you think Kiters and Boarders can share The Hatch Saf Reply with quote

What do you think - Can windsurfers and kiteboarders share the crowded jibe zone at The Hatch safely? Question[/quote]

I would say NO !

Yesterday a kiteboarder jumped over my friend when he was waterstarting. Is this a common thing for a kiter to do?

I went after the kiter to warn him that jumping over people is dangerous and is not done at the Hatchery. When I got to him he had just jumped over a boat, and his board blew off his feet nearly missing the guys in the boat, clearly showing how easy he could injure someone. A flying board like that could be deadly.

I said " You can't jump over people here" He first claimed he didn't see anyone when he jumped, then we talked it over a bit and he said he was sorry and he would not do it again, so I let go of him.

I talked to my friend later and he said the same kiter jumped over him twice! Both times he looked right at my friend in the water! Was this kiter trying to show off and make jumping a windsurfer a trick?

Kiters have the "right" to kite were they want.They don't have the right to be reckless. Dangerous stunts done by a kiter won't make them welcomed at the Hatch.

I have many friends who kite. I can't imagine any of them thinking it would be o.k. to jump over a windsurfer.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen sheriffs and park rangers order people off the water, sometimes permanently, for FAR less than that. Get them involved.

I can't comprehend the kiting community not putting a stop to this, as it will lead to banning them here as it reportedly already has at many venues. My speaking up to aggro or just plain stupid WSers hasn't made me any friends, but who the hell needs friends like that?

\m/
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jimoak



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This kiter is from Florida, he was being photographed by the group he was with. He was probably an expert and you know they are always in total control.

Like this expert.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqJ3digBos0
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gracie wrote:
I have a friend who is a Skamania Co Sheriff, nothing pisses him off more than to have recreating people complaining to him about other people recreating, deal w/ it yourself


Oh, yeah . . . like we believe that one. Give us a name and we'll just verify that with him and/or his office. The minute we get official written clearance to resolve assaults ourselves, the problem will be solved.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the Dangler fly over other sailors and deliberately kick his board off his feet to bombard them? If so . . . I LOVE skeet shooting.

I'll contact Deputy Helton and verify that he approves of ADW, quoting you as my source. We'll see whether he laughs at it.
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