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Simmer Sail problem
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13834

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wooot wrote:
we all pretty much have Northwaves, and we all like them rigged a bit differently, Mike probobly w/ the least downhaul ... me with pretty high outhaul med. downhaul,


But aren't yours ZX's? If so, they're a whole different concept from my ZXL's. That "L" denotes different construction and materials and performance objectives, not preference. ZXL's work fine with more downhaul, but it defeats their purpose and their design and discards power unnecessarily (unless, of course, I WANT to reduce power and it's too late in the day to rig down). It's just one more example of mis-applying the usual tuning guidelines, according to the sail's designer.

Mike \m/
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wooot



Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 199

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geez' Mike, do you ever NOT have a "counter attack", that was not my my point... I mostly have surflites, we all just rig differently is all I'm saying, different sailing-style, different FEEL, what we want a sail to do, this is windsurfing isn't it?

Not brainsurgury...... get a grip man

Windpig
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13834

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wooot, facts are not an attack. "We all just rig differently" misinforms the OP that tuning a sail by appearance is just personal choice, independent of the sail designer's objective. I tune my Surflite like you do yours, because that's how Blake designed them. I tune my ZXLs very differently, because that's how Blake designed them. Blake tutored me for over half an hour just two weeks ago on the differences between Surflites and ZXLs; their primary -- almost sole -- similarity is that they are both roughly triangular.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but if we both tuned our very different sails to look alike, neither would work as intended, and that's the message the OP needs to take home for a starting point.

Mike
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LoveSplittingLanes



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Back in CA!

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it seems that the debate was getting dragged into the weeds (northwave, RAF sails, Surflites, etc.), I am happy to announce that Avon came to the rescue and offered for me to test a No Limitz FAST mast. The results were astonishing since the Simmer 3XC 7.0 totally changed in profile/shape... Splendid racier curves now... No more loose leech all the way down to the boom.... "normal" pocket near the mast (sail is definitely oriented for overpowering conditions)

My Simmer RDM (Powerex, 90% carbon) seems to be soft at the butt and therefore the sail does not rig properly. Try a stiffer mast to see if things look better. I also invite interested parties to check out the No Limitz FAST RDM mast...

Lesson learned: sometimes a Simmer mast does not provide the "ideal" match on some Simmer sails... No Limitz is totally new to me and a very pleasant surprise! Thanks Margaret!
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear you were able to solve the 7.0 3XC! I just purchased an 8.0 and a 9.5 3XC and plan on trying them this weekend and will post of my findings. I have pre-rigged the sails and the 8.0 rigged well on a Powerex 490 75% carbon. The 9.5 rigged well on an older Gulftech 520/100% carbon. I will be pleased if they perform as well as they looked when rigged!
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturday the wind was light, 10-17mph so I was able to sail the Simmer 9.5 3XC for the first time. It rigged up easily and by following the written rigging instructions, downhaul, outhaul then release the downhaul, the cambers were easy to pop on the mast and they stayed on without incident until I was derigging at the end of the day. The shape is deep and powerful with a very smooth even twist at the top with very little "flop". On the water that translates to lots of power, with incredible ease and control. I guessed at the harness line location and hit it right on the money. The cams rotate very easily except for the top cam which sometimes would hang up about half way thru the rotation. I think it will not hang up at all after the cam gets seated in a little better.
The two hours or so I spent on the 9.5 were incredible! It handles more like a 7.5 or 8.0 except for the power which is all 9.5. The power is very smooth and easy, almost soft, except it pulls very much forward as opposed to sideways. The shape always seemed to be right on the money without needing much tweeking. I got the feeling you could miss the tune-up by a bunch and still get great performance out of the sail. The wind started at 17mph and dropped to 10mph. I eased the downhaul and outhaul when the wind dropped to about 12 but the sail still felt light in the hands. It didn't take on a "heavy" feeling at all.
Overall, I give it two thumbs up. It really is an incredible sail! I have only owned about 9 other sails in sizes of 8.5 to 10 meters and this sail is far and away the best in ease of handling, controllable usable power, and range. In my mind, this is an ideal sail for the recreational sailor. I'm not sure if it would win races, but it sure is a great sail for the average sailor. It makes big sails and light winds fun!
Derigging was a breeze! Remove the boom, ease the downhaul and the cams will usually pop off on their own and the mast is easily removed. The Simmer includes some very nice details like cloth at the very head of the sail where x-scrim usually cracks and crinkles. The cloth stays soft and pliable eliminating the crinkles. The full x-scrim construction should give the sail a nice long life. Overall, the sail has a nice light, soft feel! It's a great sail and I expect to enjoy it for years to come!
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to add one small problem (especially for short people). The boom opening seems to be about 6" too high. I'm 5'-10" and had the boom almost at the bottom of the opening. This could be a problem for shorter people. I lent the 8.0 to a friend who is about 5'-7 and he set his boom all the way to the bottom of the opening, although I think he could have rigged it lower on the mast extension. It might be something Simmer will want to tweek in next year's sails. Other than that, the 9.5 sail was fantastic! I'll report on the 8.0 after I get a chance to take it out.
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dsiskind2



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not Dan, but LeeD here....
Bigger the sail, the higher you gotta raise the booms.
Not only wider board with more distance from front foot to mast track, but the bigger sail is taller, so you need more leverage to hold it.
Most, not all, Formula (big sail, big board) peeps run the booms at least nose high, if not top of the head, for the leverage to flip the sail and to hold it in higher winds.
Picture superlow booms on your normal 5.0 sail.....you have little leverage and the wind can yank it around.
Some average height slalom sailors run their booms at 57" from bottom of mast extension to mid-boomhead. For Formula, they go up another 2-4".
Not saying I recommend quite that high, I use 55" and 58" for the 2 settings. Closer to 52" for bump and waves.
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pure BS, If I set the boom at the top of the opening it would have been 8" over the top of my head! Is that high enough for you! Just for the record, my boom was set at about eye level. You aren't the only person who knows where to set their boom. The boom opening is too high. Maybe I should adapt by taking stretching exercises!
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LeeD



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 970

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you're right, of course.... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
Everything you say is correct, you have no problems with your EQ, and I don't know what I'm talking about.
My #'s are wrong, you know everything, and Simmer is completely wrong on their specifications.
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