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H2O music Is this for real
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I can appreciate Epenrose's viewpoint on this. Speaking for myself, I find folks driving cars and talking on their cellphone a real pain, because they really aren't focused on driving.

Folks that wrap themselves up in electronic devices while doing things just aren't all there. They like to think that they have a total grip on what's going on, but I know that's not true. Admittedly, some can do better than others, but across the average out there, it's not something that I would like to encourage.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can say without a doubt (25 years law enforcement with 7 years on Motors) that cell phones cause a lot of problems. 9 out of 10 times if you see a driver who just "isn't all there", they are on a cellphone.

But as to music playing devices, I have to agree somewhat. I deal with bicyclists (against the law in Calif) riding with headphones all the time, they never hear what is going on around them, so they are depriving themselves of 20 - 50% of their "danger senses". Same can be said of people just walking around. They don't have a clew what is going on around them. (pun intended)

I would expect to see the same problems on the water. Plus I'm not too sure of the risk of ear injuries. If you have something in your ear and you hit the water with some good force, that water will force the earplug into your ear. Ask any doctor, that is not a good thing..... The risk may be low (right amount of combined circumstances) but the danger is high (loss of hearing in that ear).

Personally this is something I would not like to see, but I said the same thing about music playes on ski slopes, and they appear here to stay.....
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pthorner



Joined: 29 Mar 1994
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Actually, I can appreciate Epenrose's viewpoint on this. Speaking for myself, I find folks driving cars and talking on their cellphone a real pain, because they really aren't focused on driving.

Folks that wrap themselves up in electronic devices while doing things just aren't all there. They like to think that they have a total grip on what's going on, but I know that's not true. Admittedly, some can do better than others, but across the average out there, it's not something that I would like to encourage.


The difference between sailing and driving is that with driving there are marked lanes so a conservative cell phone user can drive down the freeway in one lane and cause little risk of collision (even though they are probably annoying people by slowing down and speeding up at random).

On the water, there are no lanes, so there is a need to always be heads up. Even if you are going in a straight line on starboard, a sailor pinching up toward you from below could have right of way and you should be able to observe them and slow or turn to avoid them. It seems like the users of head phones are also the ones who aspire to throw some radical moves, so now you are combining people doing unpredictable things in a free form environment while impairing their ability to know what is going on around them.

I think we owe it to each other to stay heads up and find simple ways to share the water to enhance everybody's session. Does wearing headphones prove that you are a hazard... no... but it does imply that you are more concerned with your own stoke than sharing the water in a way that doesn't interfere with anyone else's.

I've been surprised a number of times by sailors and boats that were heard before they were seen. I can admit that I can make mistakes and could use a extra sense to detect traffic. It is easy to see other windsurfers when everybody is going back and forth on the same track, but it is easy to get complacent and look forward and back and then have a racer of boat come from an unexpected angle. Anyway, I'll give you rockers a wide berth and won't be selling you any life insurance.

The Federal Navigation Rules do require that you maintain a look out by sight and hearing, so if you were involved in a collision where impaired hearing contributed, you would be in violation of Rule 5 which could affect liability and the outcome of any investigation into fault.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm

Rule 5

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Peter Thorner
SFBA
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Epenrose



Joined: 05 Nov 1997
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Peter, really good points.

From the legal end it looks pretty obvious by Peter's post and the USCG regulations that if you cause a mishap on the water you'll find yourself in some pretty hot water.

Getting a ticket from the feds is never fun.

Regarding comments made by the gentleman in law enforcement I couldn't agree more. As a motorcycle rider daily cell phone users while driving are a death on a good day. Level of attention or lack of attention is incredible.

I hope that people choose not to use this device and still have an issue with people who teach the sport promoting them.
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wyattmiller



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Music on the water rocks Reply with quote

I still say listening to music rocks, and is not dangerous.

How many hundreds of windsurfers are out there with ear plugs???

Whats the difference?

How about sailing with at hood????

Cant hear nothing.

I can say from experience that I have hit 3 people while sailing (all friends)
while not listening to music.


I have still never hit anyone while listening to music.

Also with the H20 AUDIO music I can still hear people, at least as well as if I was using a hood.

I think we all have a lot bigger chance breaking a foot just getting slammed than we do getting taken out by some stoked H20 AUDIO listener.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wyatt,

There's got be some personal financial benefit in your angle here, especially since you almost sound like a drug pusher.

Like I pointed out earlier, I'm not encouraged by folks wrapping themselves up in a bunch of electronic devices while doing other things, because they're not all there when they do. While you can claim differently, I know that it's simply not true.

What's so wrong about doing things naturally and listening to reality? You might want to think more about that instead of plugging yourself into an electronic device all the time and zoning out.
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Epenrose



Joined: 05 Nov 1997
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wyatt

I think the point being made is that maybe you are such a good sailor you are completely aware promoting this product is not only not a particularly great idea but also happens to break maritime law.

If you happen to be wearing this device and cause an accident I hope you have some good liability insurance, you could lose everything in additional to a federal charge. Peter posted the maritime link. The USCG would be all over this is someone gets hurt.

I guess the main point is that we want to keep the authorities on our side and never leave a window open to get us having to get licenses or other regulation. If and when someone gets hurt it affects us all.

If you ride a motorcycle you know all to well how distracting cell phones or music can be. It isn't about you and your sailing abilities it's about the others.
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noflyzoneallstar



Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 22
Location: LA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key thing is that the sound from the earphones really only "masks" other sounds that are the same frequency. This why music sounds interesting and why you can hear different instruments/tones at the same time. Why it's difficult to have a conversation in a crowded restaurant even though it's not that noisy.

Typical earbuds do not block out ambient noise. "Noise cancelling" or over-the-ear headphones would be a bad idea.

I've never plugged in on the water but I have biked thousands of miles through urban rush hour traffic with my ipod and have never had problem hearing what's going on around me - distinguishing vehicle noise from my music (songs with honking car horns or screaming children notwithstanding). I generally cannot hear when people are trying to talk to me - frequency of speech is too close to that of music. Legal or not, the idea that a cyclist with headphones can hear less of what's going on around him than someone driving a car with the radio on and the windows rolled up is a joke with no basis in reality.

For windsurfing the question is, is what you're listening to in the headphones roughly the same frequency as a board slapping over the water or a powerboat or someone yelling at you? I don't know, I've never tried. Seems to me that keeping your eyes open and head on a swivel is way more important for safety windsurfing. Should deaf people not be allowed to sail? There are many, many more significant risks inherent to going a mile out into the ocean in high wind with just a thin rubber suit.
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