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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4084

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac

I don’t believe that the way the antibodies are measured in COVID survivors is, necessarily, an indicator of the potential for reinfection. My understanding is that antibodies are produced as a result of an infection. The ability to produce the antibodies with sufficient strength to produce the antibodies may well be stimulated by past infection.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/28/1031287076/antibody-tests-should-not-be-your-go-to-for-checking-covid-immunity

The numbers indicate that there is at least some protection against reinfection as least right away with the vast majority of those that had COVID. Although, the reinfection rate is lowered considerably when those that had the disease are inoculated.

My brother caught COVID early in the pandemic as a health care worker. He went back to work in the height of the SDak pandemic and was not reinfected with a symptomatic case for nine months before getting vaccinated. BTW, the vaccine made both he and his COVID survivor wife very sick for several days. So, his experience would indicate that his body knew how to fight COVID.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4084

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT’s argument is, definitely, not without merit

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 12982
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
Mac

I don’t believe that the way the antibodies are measured in COVID survivors is, necessarily, an indicator of the potential for reinfection. My understanding is that antibodies are produced as a result of an infection. The ability to produce the antibodies with sufficient strength to produce the antibodies may well be stimulated by past infection.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/28/1031287076/antibody-tests-should-not-be-your-go-to-for-checking-covid-immunity

The numbers indicate that there is at least some protection against reinfection as least right away with the vast majority of those that had COVID. Although, the reinfection rate is lowered considerably when those that had the disease are inoculated.

My brother caught COVID early in the pandemic as a health care worker. He went back to work in the height of the SDak pandemic and was not reinfected with a symptomatic case for nine months before getting vaccinated. BTW, the vaccine made both he and his COVID survivor wife very sick for several days. So, his experience would indicate that his body knew how to fight COVID.


Here is a postulate on this effect, i have followed this guy for years, we have debated issues dealing with mosquitos, i won our debate was the aegis aegypti mosquitoes breed in septic tanks, he claimed they could not, (note his wife is also a PhD and if I remember she was responsible for Latin or central america for CDC infectious diseases or just mosquito cannot rember that was 10-15 years ago). I was proved correct when the us military did sampling in PR and found the aegis aegypti mosquitoes in many septic systems . I debated him because I posted replys people need to screen of septic systems and he kept removing my posts, so we dialoged for 10 or so years and when i read the US peer reviewed and forwarded it to him I will give him credit he then allowed me to post screening septic vents and tubes.

Anyway I have read recent research on dual vaccine approach. Small scale study on getting the chinese one and then the rna ones. They are moving into large scale study of that approach.

https://yucalandia.com/2021/09/10/super-immunity-to-all-forms-of-covid-from-hybrid-vaccination-approach/


Super Immunity to All Forms of COVID from Hybrid Vaccination Approach


Quote:
September 10, 2021

While non-scientist Medical doctors and so many AS SEEN ON TV doctors keep talking about finding finding some magical breakthrough “new vaccine” or new COVID treatment that will stop COVID in the future, it turns out the answer has already happened, right under non-scientist Medical doctor’s noses.

“Super Immunity” … Now:
Top virologists have recently reported that when a person is infected first by the whole COVID coronavirus, followed by getting a highly-targeted m-RNA vaccine (only Pfizer or Modernavac), then those patients are showing super immunity to ALL forms of SARS viruses – and ALL COVID-19 strains due to hybrid immunity that creates a broad spectrum of very powerful antibodies, suites of different antibodies that are not possible with just Pfizer, Moderna vac**, not from JnJ (Janssen), or Oxford-Astra Zeneca vaccines.

Based on the science behind antibody production, smart scientists have already been using this approach since last March, 2021 – by first taking a vaccine that has the whole – entire Coronavirus COVID-19 virus in the vaccine (an adenovirus-based vaccine like Sinovac) given first, which gives the patient one big group of general antibodies to SARS-CoV-2, followed by getting a second set of Pfizer or Modernavac m-RNA’s highly targeted little tiny pieces of Spike protein of the Coronavirus, creates a special combination of “very powerful” hybrid immunity that currently kills off all ALL variants of COVID.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9

Plus this special hybrid immunity from combining the our immune response from being exposed to the whole SARS virus, followed by the targeted immunity triggered by a Pfizer vac or Moderna vac pair of injections, gives a broad “impressively potent” – “bullet-proof” immune protection to all forms of SARS, including even the old SARS-CoV-1 from 2003 – which points to strong future immunity to even new variants of COVID-19.

https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abj2258


This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is image-2.jpeg
Specific comments by top scientists:
“One could reasonably predict that these people will be quite well protected against most — and perhaps all of — the SARS-CoV-2 variants that we are likely to see in the foreseeable future,” says Paul Bieniasz, a virologist at Rockefeller University who helped lead several of the studies.

In a study published online last month, Bieniasz and his colleagues found antibodies in these individuals that can strongly neutralize the six variants of concern tested, including delta and beta, as well as several other viruses related to SARS-CoV-2, including one in bats, two in pangolins and the one that caused the first coronavirus pandemic, SARS-CoV-1.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals
https://cvcovid.salud.gob.mx/?fbclid=IwAR1IOrOBG-dTfksetdZMGfGFeqfbm61ZfdU6dvSt-Vez1efSr51YwqYuHfg


**Final Notes:
1. Neither the background science nor real world scientific testing results show any indication that getting a third “booster” dose of the vaccines give the “super immunity” very strong hybrid-antibody protection created by being exposed to the combination of the entire SARS virus followed by two doses of Moderna vac or Pfizer vac doses.

2. Neither the background science nor real world scientific testing results show any indication that getting the Oxford-Astra Zeneca nor JnJ vaccines (that have low 56% – 65% efficacy), give any special protection, because the AstraZeneca & JnJ vaccines are limited, and do not have the broad range of proteins that Sinovac or a natural COVID infection offer.

3. Because the Oxford – Astra Zeneca vaccine & JnJ (Janssen) vaccines deliver only big blocks of the entire Coronavirus Spike protein – they give only lower much-less effective protection (relatively low 56% – 65% efficacy) versus the Moderna vac & Pfizer vaccine’s 93% protection.

Specifically:
” Among current COVID-19 vaccines in use, ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (AstraZeneca) vaccine efficacy against symptomatic cases dropped from 75% to 11% against B.1.351 (9). By contrast, BNT162b2 (Pfizer/BioNTech) vaccine efficacy against symptomatic cases dropped from ∼95% to 75% against B.1.351, and protection against severe disease remained at 97% (10). ”

Which says that because of it’s limitations, the Oxford-Astra Zeneca is not-surprisingly poor against newer COVID-19 variants (down at just 11% protection) … versus Pfizer up at 75% protection against a new recent COVID-19 variant.


These dramatic chemical differences between Pfizer- Moderna m-RNA vaccines versus Oxford-Astra Zeneca and JnJ are very important, because Moderna vac contains just 11 tiny highly-targeted carefully-selected snippets of Spike protein, and Pfizer vac contains just 17 tiny highly-targeted carefully-selected snippets of Spike protein, while the Oxford-Astra Zeneca and the JnJ vaccine are neither highly targeted like Pfizer & Moderna, nor are Oxford-Astra Zeneca and JnJ broad coverage vaccines like Sinovac. Sadly, Astra Zeneca & JnJ are sort of in-the-middle … middle-of-the-road … somewhate limited … much less effective than either the very broad Sinovac (the whole Coronavirus) or the highly targeted Pfizer & Moderna vacs.

The scientific evidence of super-immunity to COVID-19 by using a hybrid approach of challenging our immune systems using the entire SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, only works (currently) when followed by getting 2 doses of a highly-targeted good m-RNA based vaccine, like Pfizer or Moderna vac (93% efficacy), because of the special properties of the highly targeted special tiny snippets of Spike protein found in the Moderna & Pfizer m-RNA vaccines.

In Layman’s Terms:
Getting a natural COVID infection (or Sinovac – that has the whole COVID-19 virus) is like getting a “shot-gun” scatter-blast of a broad range of antibodies …. combined with the “sniper-rifle” highly-targeted, highly-specific approaches of Moderna & Pfizer vacs that trigger our bodies to make special, highly-selective antibodies to COVID-19 virus variants.


4. Finally, it can be important to recognize that Medical doctors (non-scientists) and AS SEEN ON TV Medical ‘expert’ almost always talk only about antibodies, while they ignore B-cells, ignore memory T-cells and they ignore killer T-Cells. It is critical to realize that the “super immunity” – “hybrid-immunity” comes from a combination of protections from ALL THREE groups of immune responses: killer T-Cells, memory T-cells, and B-Cells … aka “CD4+ T cells, CD8+ T cells, memory B cells.

Example: Studies of elderly patients vaccinated with just Pfizer vac are showing 22% of elderly patients with NO MEMORY T-Cells at 8 months after the 2’nd Pfizer jab – while those over age 80 elderlies do have reasonable B-Cell antibody levels for some protection – but NONE of the key memory T-Cells.

This is why getting just a 3’rd ‘booster’ dose of Pfizer or Moderna is no where near as effective as the combination hybrid immunity from getting a dose of the entire COVID-19 virus, followed by 2 doses of Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.


Get educated, Stay informed, Stay healthy, Stay safe

Dr. Steven M. Fry
Ph.D. Chemistry, Public Health and Laboratory Measurement Science

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when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
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wsurfer



Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 1458

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
GT’s argument is, definitely, not without merit

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098


Yeah, and if we had definitive info on the virus early we'd be doing much better.

The more unvaccinated the more variants! Period!
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16734
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apples and oranges CB. Antibody tests are only part of the immune system response to COVID. Both initial infection with COVID and vaccines create both antibodies and memory cells. Antibodies fade with time, but the research on the two best vaccines show a long-term reserve of infection fighting capacity in memory cells sufficient to prevent death and hospitalization. The line of reasoning in the articles that I have read opined that milder cases of COVID did not trigger an immune system response with high levels of antibodies and memory cells. This has been observed with other infectious agents, and is consistent with the fact that many, perhaps 1/3 to 1/2, of COVID cases are largely asymptomatic.

But I don’t read, much less peer review, the original articles. Rather, I trust reputable medical journals, as I did here. Finding some doctor unqualified to comment about epidemiology (Rand Paul, the Idaho advisor, most of Mike LaRonde’s crazy posts), or a shill on Tucker Carlson who has an interest in peddling useless supplements, to reinforce our political instincts is the source of the problem we have today.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16734
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
GT’s argument is, definitely, not without merit

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098


CB—this article made my point—a weak infection doesn’t trigger a particularly strong immune response. It also makes a point that is hard to disagree with—teaching your immune system more things to recognize and defend than simply the spike program is a good idea.

Although I am well over 65, and will get the booster, I don’t think it is irresponsible not to. I think it is more important to get vaccines in the unvaccinated—kids and skeptics—and around the world than boosters. But let’s not go down the rabbit hole with the two crazy Mikes.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4084

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wsurfer wrote:
coboardhead wrote:
GT’s argument is, definitely, not without merit

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098


Yeah, and if we had definitive info on the virus early we'd be doing much better.

The more unvaccinated the more variants! Period!


That’s not the issue GT is debating. It’s really the efficacy of the boosters on a fully vaccinated individual. There is data mounting that exposure to COVID plus the mRNA vaccines is yielding a super ability to fight all SARS based viruses. That means variants too.

The best use of vaccines is to get them out worldwide to as many as possible and not concentrate on boosters. But, distribution is a hold up. As I said, I’m getting a booster because my travel plans put me out of the country nearly a year after my single dose J and J. Otherwise, I think I would be in GT’s camp that we need to understand the long term efficacy of the vaccines before we get too enamored with the booster program.

The biggest issue, in my mind right now, in this country, is what about the vaccination of children? Leaving kids unvaccinated will allow variants to evolve which could put them at risk. But, is vaccination of children for a SARs based virus necessary? Tough call.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 12982
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the data is showing Pfizer not nearly as effective as Moderna at six months from data I think hospitalizations. Pfizer is about 58% effective at 6 months and Moderna at 90ish, that is why Moderna CEO has said he does not see the need presently and Pfizer is saying they do.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16734
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB—Here’s what GT wrote:
Quote:
I do not believe that those who have survived Covid have no trace of immunity in their system. If, as quoted (usual spinning tactic) One third of those affected show no lasting anti-bodies to Covid, TWO THIRDS DO


My model for all of this is polio. Three doses have eliminated it from the US and Europe. Without the CIA, and fear of the CIA, it might have been eliminated from the world.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2518

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you to all who have added, or clarified, new information. There are clearly conflicting views at present among the medical experts, and, no doubt, much is yet to come to light.

It seems likely that, with the current rate of research, a consensus may be reached in perhaps a years time. I now feel more justified in waiting and not taking the booster shot, until then.

Thank you. (Bowing out.)
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