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wsurfer



Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 1424

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
C.B. Addiction was a wrong word to use, (me being lazy), to covey what I meant.

The human body has evolved over a couple of million years into a finely balanced state that has ensured the survival of the human race against all threats. Many individuals have died from various defects or afflictions, but the race has survived and thrived. That is how natures survival of the fittest works.

I am not suggesting we sacrifice people to maintain our ascendency. That is an ethical question that will doubtless have to be faced in the future when genetic research has advanced into a position where it can overcome weakness by BOOSTING. I imagine it would be quite a contentious problem.

My current point is that the evolved human body is finely balanced and tuned, and that any attempt to interfere with any individual aspect of it (the immune system) MAY lead to disruption in that continually boosting it, its natural ability to respond to attack may weaken. (Muscles weaken if under used, and brains decay if people don't use them - many examples of that are obvious!) That was what I meant. We may become dependent on boosting. (Addicted to it.)

You are doing the sensible thing in taking precautions while going to Peru. I choose not to go there, while I sit it out, and wait and see.



As the young kiddies say YOLO! Watch till the end !

https://youtu.be/A_MjCqQoLLA
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16662
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome clip, thanks. I’m all in on admitting immigrants with artistic talent—even from England. Spinners for chemical poisons and white nationalists? Not so much. Send them back.

As for buggy whip? Thousands dying in Florida because of mis-management by a Republican governor who wants to be President. Crickets. Look over there at the border.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4083

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT

I agree that our immune systems are complicated and evolved over millions of years. But, when I consider the advances in technology over the last couple hundred years, I have to believe that evolution of the human race has, pretty much, become a product of that technology.

Let's consider the measles disease. Measles ravaged the indigenous people of the Hawaiian Islands after the introduction by Europeans in ships. The technology of world travel subjected a population to a disease that their immune systems had not evolved to consider. Even though, in general, the population was very healthy.

World wide diseases are a product of our advanced lifestyles, world economies and ability to move throughout the world. Vaccines are a tool that helps to mitigate the effects of our advanced civilization.

I would argue that there MAY be some value to natural immunity that cannot be provided by vaccines. However, the opportunity to become exposed to multiple threats on our collective immune systems are no longer subject to the same evolutionary math that humans developed with. Vaccines are a developed way to expose our immune systems to threats that evolution did not consider.

I'm not suggesting you get a booster, BTW. One way to thwart the advance of communicable diseases is to avoid contact. So, risk of exposure should well be considered.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16662
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is indeed a rich literature about the benefits of exposure in developing the immune system. There are also apocryphal tales of the damage done. The best book I've read on the subject is "Guns, Germs, and Steel", by Jared Diamond. Those of you who are watchers, not readers, can catch an account on PBS: https://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/

Measles, small pox and typhoid devastated Native Americans. We now have treatments for all of them--which have saved millions of lives--by boosting the natural immune system or preventing infection. My field, water quality, has led the way for much of this.

I can't understand how people think that boosting the immune system, with techniques that were pioneered in the 1700's, is weakening that system.
https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/X1d2gREAAB8A3eun?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=adgrant&utm_campaign=stories_cowpoxandjenner&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvO7OicOQ8wIVLD6tBh3sFQAbEAAYAiAAEgKorPD_BwE
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8708
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

California LOWEST case rate in the entire country. Maybe this should be on "nutty California" thread.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10013547/California-lowest-case-rate-100-cases-100-000-people-week.html?ito=push-notification&ci=0tPxmD6AdH&cri=O5YDXRRHVH&si=37388987&xi=41d05af8-4193-4d68-be62-844d7568be7b&ai=10013547
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16662
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the fake talking points from right wing pundits. Wrong. Directly on point.

Quote:
f you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?

The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection.

More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies
Natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity
Natural immunity alone is less than half as effective than natural immunity plus vaccination

The takeaway: Get vaccinated, even if you've had COVID-19. Vaccine immunity is stronger than natural immunity.

"Natural immunity can be spotty. Some people can react vigorously and get a great antibody response. Other people don't get such a great response," says infectious diseases expert Mark Rupp, MD. "Clearly, vaccine-induced immunity is more standardized and can be longer-lasting."

A third of infections don't get any protective antibodies
Some people who get COVID-19 receive no protection from reinfection – their natural immunity is nonexistent. A recent study found that 36% of COVID-19 cases didn't result in development of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The people had different levels of illness – most had moderate disease, but some were asymptomatic and some experienced severe COVID-19.

"Vaccine-induced immunity is more predictable than natural immunity," says Dr. Rupp. The COVID-19 vaccines provide great protection from severe disease, hospitalization and death.

Natural immunity fades more quickly than vaccine immunity
Natural immunity can decay within about 90 days. Immunity from COVID-19 vaccines has been shown to last longer. Both Pfizer and Moderna reported strong vaccine protection for at least six months.


From Nebraska Medicine. Hard to find a redder state.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2507

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concede the point you make C.B. (World travel and mixing spreading disease/virus.) However, the history of such does rather make my point that the immune system, once exposed to such (assuming survival) does respond and protect afterwards. The common cold was spread by Europeans among many who had no experience of it, causing many deaths, but those who survived were no different to us afterwards. i.e., a bad case of the sniffles, but not worse. The immune system was primed against it. (Even H.G. Wells got in on the act in The War of the Worlds, when he had the simple cold kill off all the unprotected Martians.

It does prove the concept of herd immunity can be real. I do not believe that those who have survived Covid have no trace of immunity in their system. If, as quoted (usual spinning tactic) One third of those affected show no lasting anti-bodies to Covid, TWO THIRDS DO!! (Talk about putting the cart before the horse.) Don't we just love statistics!

But good luck on your kiting trip C.B. I don't kite because I don't loke strings attached to my life. Wink
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16662
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question

What are you going to believe, scientists, or your fears?
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4083

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Question

What are you going to believe, scientists, or your fears?


Mac

Are you suggesting that the science is settled that someone like GT should get his third dose right now? I’m not seeing that as of this time. It seems like it might be a better strategy, for those that can, to limit contact with others.

Those of us that got the J and J are behind the rest of the vaccine receivers because of the lagging technology. So, I think there is going to be this leap frogging of data and recommendations on vaccines for awhile.

In my case, I am outside the recommendations getting a booster of a different vaccine yet not having an approval for the booster on the J and J. The important thing, from a global perspective is to get initial vaccines in as many people as we can and not fight the booster battle right now. We may well find those recommendations will take awhile to determine.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16662
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
mac wrote:
Question

What are you going to believe, scientists, or your fears?


Mac

Are you suggesting that the science is settled that someone like GT should get his third dose right now? I’m not seeing that as of this time. It seems like it might be a better strategy, for those that can, to limit contact with others.

Those of us that got the J and J are behind the rest of the vaccine receivers because of the lagging technology. So, I think there is going to be this leap frogging of data and recommendations on vaccines for awhile.

In my case, I am outside the recommendations getting a booster of a different vaccine yet not having an approval for the booster on the J and J. The important thing, from a global perspective is to get initial vaccines in as many people as we can and not fight the booster battle right now. We may well find those recommendations will take awhile to determine.


No, I think that GT has substantial protection. This isn’t about boosters, and the difference between 90% and 98% protection it is about disinformation about vaccines, safety and efficacy. I completely disagree with GT’s speculation that infection confers immunity equivalent to that of a vaccine. I had read early on that mild cases didn’t have much of an antibody response. I checked—with a credible source—and that is indeed the case. So his comments are really down the conspiracy rabbit hole. Vaccines are not new—they originated even before the cowpox experiments in the late 1700’s. MRna technology is not new either.

People in business pay for repetitive advertising, no matter how irritating, because it works. Lies repeated seem to lodge in the crevices of some minds, and convince them that up is down. There is a lucrative side line business in grifting about fake cures and alternatives to COVID. If you choose to doubt mainstream media, government, and science, and instead believe shysters who are grifting on your skepticism, I think you’re down the rabbit hole.

Check out this guy.

Quote:
By
Shawn Boburg
and
Jon Swaine

Yesterday at 10:50 a.m. EDT


1.7k
In one of dozens of recent media appearances, Ohio attorney Thomas Renz was claiming that coronavirus vaccines were more harmful than the virus itself. “The people that are dying are vaccinated,” he said on a conservative online talk show in July.
As Renz spoke, a message flashed across the screen with his website address. “Donate to his cause,” it urged.
Renz, who became a licensed attorney only months before the pandemic began, has rapidly gained prominence among covid-19 skeptics for leading federal lawsuits in six states that challenge shutdowns, mask mandates and the safety of vaccines while alleging that the danger of the virus has been overblown.
Anti-vaccine groups, conspiracy theory enthusiasts and far-right media have embraced him, and his best-known client, the group America’s Frontline Doctors, calls him part of a “Legal Eagle Dream Team.”
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