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Infinity 76 wing first thoughts
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2778

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmblaney wrote:
I agree that 9-100cm masts make it easier to learn and progress, as you've got more room before foiling out (breaching), especially if you're in chop. I don't see any point to short masts unless you're in a location with extremely shallow gradient to enter the water and very flat water with < 15 knots of wind.

Good luck,
Jeff


In addition to having more vertical adjustment room, the longer mast is also much less reactive, less twitchy than the shorter masts just like longer booms vs. shorter booms. There is a reason tightrope walkers use long poles instead of short ones.

Coachg
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1214

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
There is a reason tightrope walkers use long poles instead of short ones.

That's a rather flawed comparison, considering that tightrope walkers have the pole horizontal. A longer mast is more like mounting the rope higher so the crashes are bigger.

That said, it is true that foiling with a shorter mast will feel more twitchy. If you're on a 45 cm mast that's half out of the water, you have only 22 cm of mast to act like a fin against any sideways forces. That pretty much forces you to handle it like a freestyle fin - with lots of feeling and little pressure. If your on a typical foilboard with outside straps like a Wizard 125, that can be difficult, considering how much further outside your feet are.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4604
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Longer fuselage gives the stability.
Long mast just clears the windswell and allows more margin against breaches and slapdowns.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1214

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmblaney wrote:
I don't see any point to short masts unless you're in a location with extremely shallow gradient to enter the water and very flat water with < 15 knots of wind.

If you want to sail Cape Cod, you'll have the choice to either walk far with a 90 cm mast (like an hour back and forth), or use a short mast, if the wind happens to come up near low tide. Check the image of water depth at Kalmus. The last time I saw someone come in on a 90 cm foil close to low tide, his run ended with a big catapult when running aground, even though we could see at least half of his mast above the water.
Walking towards the deep water against the typical onshore winds gets a bit more complicated because the ground is quite uneven, with many spots a foot or two higher than the neighborhood. Even if you're in water that's on average deep enough, you may well hit something before getting up on a foil, especially if you're not an expert yet and spend more time slogging or getting going.

I have had quite a fun time with the 45 cm mast and an FWind1 at Kalmus in 20 mph wind just a couple of days ago. Chop was quite high, up to 2 feet, since it had been windier earlier. At first, I thought the combo was unfoilable. The FWind1 felt way more nervous on the short mast than Infinity foils, and the breaches were much more abrupts. But after a little while, I adapted, was able to avoid most breaches, and recovered without crashes from the ones that still happend. Made for a very interesting roller coaster ride.

Also, don't discount the fear factor. Plenty of windsurfers who toy with the idea of foiling stay away because they do not like the idea of crashing from 3 feet above the water. Just like plenty of windsurfers never learn to loop, even if they can do more difficult tricks like planing 360s. Shorter masts may give you more crashes, but they tend to be less dramatic. They let you ease into things, and learn that the crashes aren't that bad.

Finally, you have places like Hatteras where a 90 cm mast is not an option at most spots. I'm very much looking forward to foiling in Hatteras in 20 knots of wind in October, because it's still pretty flat there. I just hope that Dorian does not cause too much damage there - right now, the forecast looks nasty, with a direct hit and east wind followed by northwest, both above 40 knots.



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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4604
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still hoping that a 70 cm mast will forcefeed me to become more stable, so I can handle bigger windswells as I get better.
Now, we get 2' high windswells in 15 mph gusts, the swells coming from 5 miles upwind but the wind diffusing 10 mph.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19320

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
If your on a typical foilboard with outside straps like a Wizard 125, that can be difficult, considering how much further outside your feet are.

I've never sailed a board with outside straps, so the Wizard 125 feels very strange in that regard. My solution for that has been to use exceptionally long straps.
They span the entire insert range at all four corners so even in the straps I -- not hardware -- get to choose where my feet are.
They still have the length to adjust very high so I can safely get booties in and out without sticking.
They are thin and have a slick top so they don't act like bear traps when dragging the sail over the deck.

I also appreciate the gentle falls from my 61 cm mast. I can't really call them "crashes", as they've been mostly touchdowns which rebound into the air again or just comparatively gentle falls to one side. Only one was memorable, and then only because I was looking at the entire foil on my way down.


Last edited by isobars on Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately you lose the benefit of foiling with straps by making them like that.
All you need is something to pull against with your toes. Full foot insertion like for waves or freestyle isn't beneficial.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19320

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Unfortunately you lose the benefit of foiling with straps by making them like that.
All you need is something to pull against with your toes. Full foot insertion like for waves or freestyle isn't beneficial.

You may be fully correct. My objective is to obtain the benefit of SOMETHING to pull against to prevent launches while still getting some freedom to choose where my feet need to be. It's highly experimental, based in part on experts' advice to get in the straps the instant we're standing on the deck, before we even THINK about getting under way, let alone foiling. I suspect it may be an intermediate step before shorter straps or half-straps mounted where someone SAYS they should be.

Even if it merely removes the bear traps from the deck, that's worth it. I've sold straps and even sails because of that issue.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4604
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always pump out of the straps and work my way back as speed increases, just like windsurfing.
My fat butt sinks the tail even with mast base pressure,
WS, I easily stay in straps after landing jumps even slogging fully,
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exgolfer



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:28 am    Post subject: SS FOILS Reply with quote

interesting that this thread, while having lots of input, seems to omit an important number, the distance between the front tuttle bolt and the mast foot bolt center.

For this setup Wyatt Miller, who is a terrific resource at SS, recommends starting the 84 cm infinity wing in fuse position c for windsurfing (wing forward) and the tuttle to mast foot measure at 107cm. and adjust from there to match the rider and sail size.

I moved mine about a half an inch forward for the most balanced ride over a range of conditions and sails. my board is a 150l wizard, front straps only. just moved up to the 91cm mast today from 71cm which gave me much more margin for error and was an easy transition. was already consistently sailing across the river in 12 to 20 knots on 4.2, 5.2 and 6.0 m sail works flyer sails from pumping the big sail to get up on foil to being totally overpowered and sailing mostly sheeted out on the 4.2 but riding just fine. I weigh 220.

the back strap is doable but not as steady yet nor is it essential. jibes without at least a touchdown still elude me. my pumping of the sail and back foot is slowly getting more coordinated and effective. I have 10 sessions now on this gear and once I got the numbers from Wyatt it has been the quickest thing I have learned in WSing.

I would recommend saving yourself a lot of time and frustration simply emailing SS after you register and asking for the best setup numbers for your 76 or whatever if you are riding their gear. and watch videos on you tube and vimeo by wyatt and by bruce at sail works to get things dialed in. both guys are terrific on the finer points. if you don't have the gear dialed from the start learning is much tougher. having the same make and vintage of foil and board helps, it seems. I made the expensive mistake of buying a foil and trying to make it work with my existing gear. had experience like some of those above.

the other big tip, don't push laterally against the board while sailing, especially pointing. the upright sailing stance gets some getting used to especially upwind but ended my problems with upwind sailing and regularly spinning out modestly on the foil. i kept trying to get locked into the harness by leaning out and this was counterproductive. focusing instead on sail trim and amount mast rake is making sailing dry much more consistent. mast rake (fore and aft) is a key balance input besides foot pressure and where your shoulders are.

the 84 allows you to fly at a pretty slow speed so the learning curve is not as terrifying on that big wing.

Progression for me at least: get setup right, get enough sail power to easily get up on the foil but try keep board flat and on water until board speed and directional stability builds as water moves more quickly along the foil surfaces, put on front foot strap and use it every time, be able to sustain flight in front strap without harness, learn to pump sail and back and front foot in coordination, use harness on steady lighter wind days, move up to taller foil mast, put on back strap in most inboard position....

Finally, in the time I took to read this thread I could have done, what I should have done at the outset, and should have done when I learned to windsurf, take a lesson(s) from someone who could help me dial in my setup from the start and accelerate my learning curve. lessons are better investments than any gear and any readings.
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