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Sailing after a heart attack
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1024

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Too many doctors spew poor advice, whether it's about nutrition*, exercise, or even their own specialties. Many say our hard exercise days end with that first heart attack. The published studies prove just the opposite, however. Do some homework and you'll find that hard and surprisingly early exercise, especially HIIT**, can quickly bring life and strength back to damaged hearts and the bodies they serve.

* A bud was airlifted off a ski slope 20 years ago into an immediate quad bypass. I'm surprised that he still sails in gales, considering that his idiot doctor has him eating ONLY the one macronutient we don't need to consume at all. The two we MUST consume are forbidden and/or nearly forbidden to him. The one his cardiologist makes him almost exclusively eat drives our triglycerides to dangerous levels (his are extreme) and encourages diabetes, heart disease, and much more.

He's denied all fat, allowed just barely enough protein to survive (and can't understand why his muscles -- including his heart, presumably) are atrophying to non-existence (135# @ 6'2"), and lives ... so far ... on just empty carbs, aka SUGAR.

** Two of HIIT's many advantages for virtually ANYONE are decreased blood pressure and development of new blood vessels, vital in prevention or survival of that next heart attack.


I love forums and the web! They so allow ignorance to spread unchecked!!!!!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9407

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing that's worth investigating to better characterize where your heart is at after a heart attack, and that's performing an echocardiogram in concert with an EKG. I've had many over the last 15 years, and they give your cardiologist a very detailed review of your heart's performance both at rest and after a treadmill test.

An echocardiogram is a non-invasive test, and all mine were performed in my cardiologist's office. If you have any resulting irreparable damage, it can be highlighted and characterized to help guide you if you have any notable limitations.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19105

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvCali wrote:
I love forums and the web! They so allow ignorance to spread unchecked!!!!!

Get specific and back it up or become part of the problem.
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wernerhickey



Joined: 13 Jun 2015
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@dvCali - I think that is Isobar's point. Inform yourself and check what you are being advised. Not all doctors are the same and their bias for treatments for the same disease can be totally 180. Go to a surgeon their advise will be to cut - go to an endo they will advise "blockers" as one small recent example in my family showed. One was right one was clearly wrong as post-op biopsy showed.
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1024

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wernerhickey wrote:
@dvCali - I think that is Isobar's point. Inform yourself and check what you are being advised. Not all doctors are the same and their bias for treatments for the same disease can be totally 180. Go to a surgeon their advise will be to cut - go to an endo they will advise "blockers" as one small recent example in my family showed. One was right one was clearly wrong as post-op biopsy showed.

@wernerhickey I was not looking for advise, I was actually giving some words of caution to the original poster together with the best suggestion I can think of: talk to your cardiologist, and if you feel uncomfortable with him/her get a second cardiologist opinion.

It is a good example of Web-fueled delusion to think that you can properly inform yourself about something as complicated as preventing, or surviving, or recovering from a "heart attack". You might learn a bit about your specific condition ... but giving advise? Like: "... hard and surprisingly early exercise, especially HIIT**, can quickly bring life and strength back to damaged hearts" is up there in the top echelon of miss-informed and miss-informing Web-la-la-land.


Last edited by dvCali on Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
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DelCarpenter



Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 423
Location: Cedar Falls, IA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Isobars mention of HIIT, high intensity interval training, was not intended as a prescription for any other person to exactly follow what Isobars does in his HIIT. In everything else Isobars in effect says, "Do it the way that fits you." HIIT for someone recovering from a recent heart attack will be quite different from what it would be months later.

Obviously, too much strain for even the healthiest heart is: too much strain. And too little strain also weakens any muscle.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19105

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't give medical (or wind forecast) advice. Google "HIIT after heart attack" minus the < and >.

Every one of us should educate himself in everything from cancer to toenail fungus, including heart attacks, if we want to outlive the harm often done by countless well-meaning medical providers. The third- (probably heading for second-) largest cause of death in the U.S. is medical errors, and that doesn't even include the death and/or disability rates from simple bad advice involving such myths as lowering our cholesterol, avoiding saturated fats, gutting out aerobic exercise, accepting drugs or surgery for everything, and so much more.

We don't need, nor could we expect, to know more overall than the better physicians out there, but we CAN and SHOULD know enough to spot and avoid most bad advice and doctors. We CAN and SHOULD know some specifics about our own medical issues and solutions that even the better, often best, specialists do not know. I used to be amazed at some of the entrenched BS fed me by specialists (including cardiologists, medical/surgical/radiation oncologists, surgeons, internal medicine concierge physicians, nutritionists, medical professors, PAs and nurses, and so much more), but the surprise factor is gone. Now I just present overwhelming research data to them if necessary, and fire them if they dismiss it out of habit or resent my involvement. I can usually prove my cases; many of them cannot and/or won't even try to dispute any evidence contrary to what they were taught decades ago. Many of them just figuratively thump their chest, as though the name embroidered on it was, "God", not "Jones".

Turning off the TV, doing some homework, and questioning these "gods" is likely to add years of heartbeat, quality, and windsurfing to our lives.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19105

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DelCarpenter wrote:
HIIT for someone recovering from a recent heart attack will be quite different from what it would be months later.

Obviously, too much strain for even the healthiest heart is: too much strain. And too little strain also weakens any muscle.

The only way to strengthen any muscle, including the heart, is to stress it, and the benefits from HIIT are so rapid and clearly established that it takes just weeks, not even months, to clearly see the advantages to HIIT over moderate exercise such as "cardio" or aerobics. That applies to everyone from geriatric heart patients to college athletes.

Then there's SMIT ... Supra Maximal Interval Training. It takes extra discipline, but it has its own extra benefits boost if not overdone.
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1024

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
DelCarpenter wrote:
HIIT for someone recovering from a recent heart attack will be quite different from what it would be months later.

Obviously, too much strain for even the healthiest heart is: too much strain. And too little strain also weakens any muscle.

The only way to strengthen any muscle, including the heart, is to stress it, and the benefits from HIIT are so rapid and clearly established that it takes just weeks, not even months, to clearly see the advantages to HIIT over moderate exercise such as "cardio" or aerobics. That applies to everyone from geriatric heart patients to college athletes.

...


@isobars Blanket statements like this show just little appreciation of how different cardiac conditions can be, and how the requirements of different cohorts of people might differ. What seems to be obvious, "only way to strengthen any muscle is to stress it", is not necessarily what is true, and "stress" means something very different depending on condition and cohort, especially when a failure in the muscle can be catastrophic.

It is a bit foolish to suggest to victims of heart attacks to do any kind of exercise before they are told to do so by a cardiologist. You can barely MOVE after a severe heart attack. You do not seem aware that for many patients rehab need to be supervised, hooked up to an EKG, and it is done in a clinic. But sure let's put everybody on HIIT! Up! Up! Up! don't be lazy!

BTW: even a cursory look at trials testing HIIT shows that (a) they are extremely small trials (as it is often the case for para-medical interventions) and (b) are extremely inconclusive. Ina quick search I have found no suggestion to adapt it during rehab, found a study (2018) that shows no benefit to reduce blood pressure for fit people, only benefit to reduce blood pressure in sedentary people but un-distinguishable from regular exercise, and another one (2017) showing zero benefit for people with cardiac failure with respect to normal exercise ...

Ok, enough, my last post on this, sorry about the verbosity. Off to MTB in the park and some interval training Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy (Crissy is blowing but it is too cold)
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5029
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richhotdog wrote:
I did not realize I was having a heart attack for a few days. I thought I had pinched nerves in my neck. Both my arms went numb and I had pain in my jaw,but it would only last for 10 minutes to an hour.
I was told my heart looks strong and had minor damage if any. I go to the doctor 7/17 and hope he answers most of my questions.
I plan on sailing in flat shallow water for a while and plan on having friends keep an eye on me.
Thanks,Rich


Beware of cheap advise by those posts, and individuals who are experts on everything
Your plans seem reasonable .

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