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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1167
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I clapped for a guy one time but it was only for when he almost ripped off a guys fender when he was dragging his huge gear trailer through the parking lot at Bobs Beach IIRC as I'm in the Holiday Spirits.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19217

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good God, Ben. Wee bit too much holiday cheer already?
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mamero



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread.

I focused pretty hard last summer on getting through my first step carve gybe. I came close a couple times but not yet. This summer!

Perhaps I should switch gears for a while and take on the Duck Gybe first?

After skimming through this thread and watching a few videos I'm wondering if the Duck Gybe is what I should really be working on now. If I can nail a Duck Gybe does it make a Step Carve Gybe come quicker or more consistent than if you just worked on the Step Carve Gybe without the Duck Gybe?

A couple questions and comments regarding the Duck Gybe.
1. How realistic is it for a 140 lbs 5'6" sailor to learn and regularly duck a 7.5? Peconic Puff, I read your Blog on this. Interesting.
2. From watching videos I have a safety concern regarding the Duck Gybe. After you duck the sail your front foot on the old tack is still in the strap. This seems like a recipe for an injured foot, especially while learning. How do you ensure you don't injure a foot or leg while learning Duck Gybes?
3. Could someone point to some good land drills to practice the Duck Gybe mechanics in slow-mo?
4. The entry to a Step Carve Gybe and Duck Gybe are the same up to the point your rear foot steps across to the inside rail. Correct?

5. A general gybe entry question: I find that practicing gybes is very tiring on the hands and forearms due to the prolonged grip unhooked. The entry stage where you are hanging means you are sailing un-hooked with FULL power for an extended time. When you are practicing gybe entries this takes a LOT out of you (or at least me anyway). The days I am working on this really reduces my sailing time. I get to a point where I really can not hold on anymore and, as much as I'd love to keep sailing, I really don't feel safe going out for another run. What exercises, drills, or training can one do to increase the endurance in their forearms and hands to "hang on" longer? Dasher's video and Peconic Puff mentioned the importance if taking your time in this stage and letting things settle.

Forgive me if this was already discussed. This thread is rather long now and I may of missed it.


Last edited by mamero on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 817

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started doing ducks in addition. But only when just moderately powered with a medium (~5-6m) sail. On bigger gear is a very long reach even at 6 feet.
However I do practice ducking the sail any time I'm slogging on my bigger board, like when foiling and between gusts. In that situation I can do a 7.5 fairly easy.
I don't plane out with bigger gear but can sometimes pull it off with medium and smaller.

Bearing away more will lighten the load on the arms, as will dropping lower.

I'd recommend strength training with barbells along with pull-ups for anyone who windsurfs.
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mamero



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mamero wrote:
A couple questions and comments regarding the Duck Gybe.
1. How realistic is it for a 140 lbs 5'6" sailor to learn and regularly duck a 7.5? Peconic Puff, I read your Blog on this. Interesting.
2. From watching videos I have a safety concern regarding the Duck Gybe. After you duck the sail your front foot on the old tack is still in the strap. This seems like a recipe for an injured foot, especially while learning. How do you ensure you don't injure a foot or leg while learning Duck Gybes?
3. Could someone point to some good land drills to practice the Duck Gybe mechanics in slow-mo?
4. The entry to a Step Carve Gybe and Duck Gybe are the same up to the point your rear foot steps across to the inside rail. Correct?

5. A general gybe entry question: I find that practicing gybes is very tiring on the hands and forearms due to the prolonged grip unhooked. The entry stage where you are hanging means you are sailing un-hooked with FULL power for an extended time. When you are practicing gybe entries this takes a LOT out of you (or at least me anyway). The days I am working on this really reduces my sailing time. I get to a point where I really can not hold on anymore and, as much as I'd love to keep sailing, I really don't feel safe going out for another run. What exercises, drills, or training can one do to increase the endurance in their forearms and hands to "hang on" longer? Dasher's video and Peconic Puff mentioned the importance if taking your time in this stage and letting things settle.


Also...
6. If the sail flip for a Step Carve Gybe occurs at 6 o'clock downwind (wind is at 12), what time(s) do you duck the sail?
7. In a Duck Gybe entry do you slide your clew hand down the boom like you do in a Step Gybe entry? If so, how far?
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3455

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I can do both, I am a master of neither. If possible, practice in flat water. The fewer the bumps and waves, the easier it is to focus on the timing of the sail flip or duck and not worry about loss of speed/plane.

I won't go into the details since I don't have a good sense of what I am doing in duck jibe, but one thing I had trouble with in the beginning was keeping the board carving. I had a tendency to run the board dead down wind when ducking sail (stopping the carve), which doesn't work.

The larger the sail the harder it is to duck and keep the foot of the sail out of your face. Easier to learn on smaller sails. Long arms help.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 817

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to get way down the boom and start the duck basically when you start the carve. The hard part is maintaining the carve while doing your hand work.
Bonus is you get power on super early.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19217

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mamero wrote:
5. A general gybe entry question: I find that practicing gybes is very tiring on the hands and forearms due to the prolonged grip unhooked. The entry stage where you are hanging means you are sailing un-hooked with FULL power for an extended time. When you are practicing gybe entries this takes a LOT out of you (or at least me anyway). The days I am working on this really reduces my sailing time. I get to a point where I really can not hold on anymore.


Energy conservation includes both the kinetic energy of your moving mass and the chemical energy stored in your muscles. Slowing down wastes the former, and using our arms to sail wastes the latter. Wasting either leads to more work on your part, so don't forget that sailing any distance unhooked during your jibes is normally an option, not a mandate, and in rough water it presents additional problems. As I've discussed in countless threads including this one, freaking Git 'Er Done.

Why sail 100 meters and 10 seconds away to jibe when you could jibe here and now with much less effort and lost ground? My best jibes involve little more than directing the rig through the turn, even when overpowered, and they were my first full-planing jibes, not the end result of years of improvement. Done right, they are quick and almost effortless (for our upper body) in virtually any conditions. My strength limit in my best jibes is my back leg quads: they sometimes collapse from the sheer g forces of a full speed tight turn.

Here's a brilliant idea: rather than insisting that T,T,G,&G can't be done, TRY IT. I gotta wonder how many of the guys who dismiss this and other energy conservation measures as Fickshun will still be able to sail their asses off for eight solid, measured hours on a little sinker in wind averaging around 30 mph plus big swell when they’re in their 70s, as I did.

Here are some additional likely reasons your arms tire:
• You occasionally slog. STOP IT. Rig a bigger sail, board, and/or fin, or just break the habit. It’s usually avoidable even with a wind shadow near shore.
• Your harness may not be carrying the full load of your weight and the sail's pull when reaching. Trust it and relax. Your whole body will appreciate it.
• You may be using a harness hook. BOOOO! A roller bar lets us stay hooked in and thus carries the load MUCH longer in a much wider range of maneuvering.
• You may be gripping the boom tightly during reaches. STOP IT. Think rotten egg, not barbell.
• Your harness lines may not be balanced properly. Fix them.
• Your boom and/or hook may be too high or low or your lines too long. Fix it.
• You may not employ any of the scores of exercises you can Google up to strengthen your arms/shoulders/back. Fix the problem, but don’t overdo it. For example, I don’t do any curls, preferring multiple-joint exercises.
• You may be overdoing strength-building exercises, leaving insufficient recovery time. Google "overtraining" and STOP IT.
• You may think that building strength and endurance takes too much time. Google (and SEARCH this forum for) Superslow and HIIT, reduce your workout time by >90%, and get greater overall results while reducing risk.
• If you do work out, you may do it like almost everyone in my gym: wave your arms around for 10 reps, lollygag for a minute, repeat, and walk away breathing normally. That burns a couple of calories but does little else. Remember, the only rep that counts is the one we absolutely can NOT complete with proper form, and even then we’re not done until we “destroy” that same muscle eccentrically. THAT leaves you still heaving for air as you begin your next exercise, adding significant aerobic and anaerobic benefit to your strength workout.
• You may not feed your body properly to build and maintain strength and endurance. Athletes do best when eating LOTS of carbs or nearly none; pick one and stick to it. I prefer the latter, aka keto; Google it for a whole ‘nuther way to eat that offers MANY health and performance benefits (e.g., some of the world's top endurance athletes are keto-powered).

I am certain that the time and effort I've devoted to studying and employing sports physiology and nutrition is significantly responsible for thousands of hours of additional TOW and for eliminating the inner and outer epicondylitis (golfer's and tennis elbow) I fought for decades. Done right, employing that knowledge doesn't have to take much time. My “lifting”, for my whole body, takes about four hours … per year.

Isn't that worth gaining thousands of hours of shred time?

If a commercial gym costs too much money or hassle and you think a home gym takes too much space, guess again: Smile



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