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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18693

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
isobars wrote:
Prove you're not Isobans and I'll consider answering your questions ... at least the ones not already addressed ad nauseum.


Prove you can jibe.

Don't have to. I know how well I can and can't jibe, and that's what matters to me. I simply offer my technique(s) -- plus motivation some folks mistake for "bragging" -- to anyone who wishes to try them. That's yet another reason I say "I do it this way" rather than "You must do it my way", "You can't do that", or "You're a liar".

But before I spend one moment in replying to someone highly suspected of being a specific known troll, he's got to prove I'm mistaken about his identity and that he really wants to know how to jibe, that he's not just wasting everyone's time prodding a bees' nest to get his rocks off at everyone else's expense.
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Bendover



Joined: 13 Sep 2011
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we dont know isobans. and dont think you can so never will attempt to actualy specif8caly and completly answer the questions so you are prevaricating like for question1.

and yes actualy realy want to know.....

Three Questions. write down again, full questions from before   below.....

question 1. are you changing def8nitiin of what happens in you jibes in one second?

decades of isobars written 1 second reach to reah hooked in fast by jibe in any terrain  random, harsh terrain much tighter jibes in truly gnarly garbage LESS than second to jibe sail every quotes below (example ""The result of all this is what feels like acceleration throughout the jibe, as the only time I'm not fully powered is during the sub-second sail spin. One second I'm fully wound out in the incoming beam reach, the next I'm accelerating under full power in the new broad reach; the whole jibe feels like acceleration, not deceleration.") unhooked for just 2-3 seconds)") , but this thread isobars written now just sail flip?

"Prove I can't jibe a rig boom to boom in one second and I'll give you a board. Tip: you don't get to redefine the terms to include looking for a flat spot, or bearing off into a broad reach 'til hell freezes over, or dancing the step jibe minuet, or strapping in. Hooking in within that second? That has happened, but is serendipitous icing, not cake. No promises there  "

Question 2, how do you mqke rail tail pressure sharp turn with head heigh walls curtains of water while not touching board or sail in 2-3,seconds so board clear chop without impediment ? isobars quoted below

question 3. how do y9u jump off board with both feet and front foot in the straps already?

isobars quote "I was well into a clear and useful reply when a warning bell penetrated my drugs   Only if you can convince me your inquiry is serious will I even think about completing that reply  "  and listed questions 2 and 3.

isobars next quote"Prove you're not Isobans and I'll consider answering your questions ... at least the ones not already addressed ad nauseum.   "

you prove not prevaricating.

3 questions minus 2 isobars listed question equal 1 question. "ones" is more than 1.

First question has never been answered, it is from this thread.  isobars was well into a clead and useful reply to isobars listed quoted questions 2 and 3. Which "ones" questions have already been "  addressed ad nauseum"??

to improve sailing jibing benefit please answer the three QUestions. here. anyone elses wants to know!!##?

Sorry.. mistake trys deleted. Please answer the three questions. if not for us, for all others to benefit!? 

You're own writing words over decades really seems to be that you can go from hooked in footstraps to hokked in and footstraps by jibing in a second while going really fast (zero speed loss clear through the jibe......this jibe IS an acceleration. The result is often that board speed is faster just after the 135-degree swerve (on the broad reach exit) than it was before the swerve (on the incoming beam reach) quoted below. Are you changing how dlfast that happens now by using the sugested 1 second to only flip the sail? You're writing the sail ane feet jibe LESS than second or well under a second or quarter of a second quotes below.  

how do you keep the inside rail weighted to carve so tight with head high curtains walls of water while no part of y9ur body is touching any part of youre boardbnor rig when you   leave the board with both feet at once to let the board clear chop without impediment? quote below 

how do you jump your feet off the board togehter when the front foot if still in the strap? 

quotes from 

isobars"  

1x  

Back foot on rail, thrust hips, THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO, switch both feet simultaneously, DONE* ... all faster than you can say the words normally.   

* No, I didn't forget to type "raking the sail back and hooking in"; when done right, the harness lines fling out via centrifugal force and hook in while both feet are off the deck switching stance and the sail is spinning. All that remains is getting in the straps, FFF or BFF, if your feet didn't engage one (rare), or both (hen's teeth) straps when they came down.   

2.  

Between planting the back foot on the rail and getting back into the straps, I unweight and simultaneously switch both feet to their exit positions. Done. That footwork takes maybe a quarter of a second.   

Want proof? Stand up and stagger your feet so one's in the front foot strap location, the other is "on the rail". Now unweight them ... i.e., hop them off the floor just high enough to clear the front strap with your rail foot... and switch 'em. If that takes you more than a quarter of a second, you're defying gravity, because a 3"-high-jump lasts only 0.250 seconds. Do the math.   

If you can do those 6 or 7 steps quicker than that, I bow to thee.   

Timing of the foot switch depends on many factors, as does the sail flip, but the only handwork from inbound beam reach to exit beam reach is sliding the front hand forward, then a THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO about as fast as you can say it, well under a second, at which point you are sheeted in and accelerating on the new broad reach, maybe even hooked in.   

3.  

The more powered I am when I begin my jibe, the sooner in the turn I must oversheet (back hand in, front hand forward and into the turn); otherwise it actually takes muscle power or is not feasible at all, in which cases I swerve back a bit to windward to lighten the back hand load, THEN oversheet dramatically, THEN jibe. The first time you cannot oversheet, then solve the problem by thrusting the front hand forward and in as you oversheet, the rig will instantly feel like a mast and boom with no sail on them, a big bright light will go on over your head, you will turn like you’ve never turned before, you will be so enthralled by it that you will forget to flip the sail, and you will get backwinded and fall in.   

The next time that light comes on you will know to jibe the sail sooner.   

That same combination of oversheeting with the back hand and driving the front hand forward and into the turn will also convert a mild leeward change of direction into a hard slash, if accompanied by appropriate foot pressure. On a board designed to turn, pulling on that back hand as you slash will provide much the same sensation as grabbing a flagpole as you run by it; you’ll want your cap and shades snugly fastened.  

4,,  

I suspect semantics are involved, in that while we shouldn't concentrate on lee rail foot pressure at the expense of everything else we must do, that foot pressure is still vital to carving all the way through. My (and others') rail pressure improved by leaps and bounds the first time I forgot about "rail foot pressure" and just thrust my hips into the turn. Letting the sail pull us into the turn does much the same thing, and overlaps significantly with hip trust. Both, whether separately or together, actively (just not so consciously) generate and maintain an active carving input.   

55  

Just one of several reasons I prefer fast, tight jibes: screw flat spots. I'm often unhooked for less than three seconds when I'm doin' it right.  

6.  

Since jibing the board requires only a swish of the hips -- not much more than one second once that inside foot is on its rail -- the objective is to jibe sail and feet in LESS than that second. When done right this takes you from the incoming beam reach to the outgoing broad reach, with no loss of speed, hooked in and groping for the straps, within the span of a couple of heartbeats. That seems pretty danged efficient to me.   

7.  

THROW the back hand away hard and much sooner, and THROW the mast across your face hard a millisecond later. This places the new side of the boom floating in the air right where you want it; GRAB it and GO . . . sail away at full power and without having lost any speed from the incoming screaming broad reach.   

My best (zero speed loss clear through the jibe, as fluid as a simple swerve, no bobbles at all, unhooked for just 2-3 seconds) come when I throw the sail at about 4:00 and am sheeted in and still accelerating by 7:00. No more reaching for or pulling on the sail, front or back hand. This bidness of waiting or maneuvering until the wind rotates the sail is   
s-l-o-w-w-w-w and interferes with . . . you know . . . JIBING.   

It may sound like on screen like an advanced, specialty form of jibe, but a) it got me over a many-years non-jibing plateau and b) my first one, the one that changed windsurfing for me, came when it was jibe right freaking NOW or hit the shore 30 feet downwind and parallel to my beam reach.   

Setup? SPEED, inside foot on its rail behind the front strap, knees flexed to the point youre looking forward below the boom, eyes locked onto your intended path out of the jibe, weight on your toes but spine upright (you curtsey, not bow), fromt arm straight out stiff-arming oncoming tacklers, back hand sheeting the sail in grazing your leg so the sail foot doesnt hit the chop. Then -- all in the space of about one second -- swing your hips into the turn as though bumping the car door closed, THROW, THROW, GRAB, and GO, and youre sheeted in on the new broad reach WFO. Its effortless and completely fluid. Theres wind in the sail only while youre sheeted in and accelerating; the rest of the time, while youre oversheeted and flipping the sail, it seems to be in a vacuum.   
8,  

Read my jibe tips and get back to us. Does your approach take you from sheeted in on the incoming beam reach to sheeted in -- maybe even hooked in -- on the outgoing broad reach in the space of one heartbeat with zero loss of speed through the entire jibe?   

9.  
You missed a vital part: In the space of a heartbeat. When you really get these things wired, you can be sheeted in on a flat-out starboard beam reach one second and sheeted in on an even faster port broad reach one second later. Any loss of speed can be so brief and so inconsequential that neither jiber nor observer perceives it.   

Its like banking a hard shot off a pool table rail. The winds not going to do that for you, because it doesnt even touch the sail when you spin it hard at the right time. The actual sail jibe, from sheeted in on starboard to sheeted in on port, probably takes half a second for sails under about 5 meters, and is often completed before the board points downwind. This form of jibe is basically a very hard, very high-g-force, almost instantaneous, 135-degree slash from one beam reach to the opposite broad reach, with a sail spin and foot switch thrown in during the sub-second your feet arent busy steering the board.   

And, done right, this jibe IS an acceleration, because it is little more than a quick slash off the wind. The tiny bit of speed given up momentarily to the second with no power and to the wall of water it throws up is quickly regained the instant we sheet in on the new broad reach. The result is often that board speed is faster just after the 135-degree swerve (on the broad reach exit) than it was before the swerve (on the incoming beam reach), just as one accelerates in a 45-degree swerve from beam to broad reach. The sensation is that of riding that pool ball into and out of that rail, not of driving a sluggish Miata through an autocross chicane.   

10..  

Hop jibe" would be accurate when I leave the board with both feet at once to let the board clear chop without impediment, but on smooth water my feet usually slide simultaneously, maintaining weightless contact with the board all or most of the time. It's just a matter of degree and height, not a different technique. All that bearing off to gain speed and stepping and pivoting and heels and balls of our feet and sliding hands and touching the mast and reaching around the mast and waiting for the wind to "flip" the sail stuff is time-consuming and unnecessary ... options we can dispense with if we like to just Git Er Done and get on with the next reach rather than dally over the U-turn. All that's really necessary is this, in a beam reach: 1) placing our back foot on the rail, 2) thrusting our hips, 3) spinning the sail, 4) switching our feet simultaneously (in ballet it's called a changement), 5) grabbing the free-floating boom, and 6) sailing away, some of those parts (especially 2 though 5) done virtually simultaneously, and with no perceptible loss of speed, all in the space of a couple of heartbeats. I'd never be able to plane my sinker wave boards through a jibe as wide as Willy does in that video.  

11,  

When that gets easy, do it at warp speed in random, harsh terrain. Jibing on wave/swell faces overtaxes my balance; much tighter jibes in truly gnarly garbage come easier to me simply because they must be very quick, chop be damned. Because they're quick, I don't have time to slow down; my sail is depowered for less than one second when I do 'em right. Some are little more than literally a 90-degree horizontal bounce off a piece of chop, during which I switch feet and boom sides.   

That is the heart and soul of my best jibes. I spin the sail and let go completely. While it spins freely, untouched, I unweigh both feet and switch them simultaneously; I'm touching neither board nor rig as the rig and I spin in the air. When I time it right, as I did most times until recently, I land on the board near both straps, with the new side of the boom simply floating in mid-air in front of me ... like magic, as you say. I grab it, sheet in, and accelerate even more because I'm in the new broad reach. The result of all this is what feels like acceleration throughout the jibe, as the only time I'm not fully powered is during the sub-second sail spin. One second I'm fully wound out in the incoming beam reach, the next I'm accelerating under full power in the new broad reach; the whole jibe feels like acceleration, not deceleration. (Anybody who thinks this is self-aggrandizement doesn't understand stoke; any aggressive sailor can learn to do it on a board <100 liters; it's how I learned to jibe in the absence of any available lessons.)   

12  

Mine, OTOH, are carved, but turning off the tail rather than the whole rail. They throw up a head-high curtain of water. They are, however, timing jibes; if I mistime the sails spin by a half-second, it's crash or lucky recovery time,  

13.  

For several years I ripped all the way through at least 90% of my jibes with no perceptible loss of speed, in most cases, in any terrain (presuming good wind  

"  

14, and on and 9n and on and on....  

You're own writing words over decades really seems to be that you can go from hooked in footstraps to hokked in and footstraps by jibing in a second while going really fast. Are you changing how dlfast that happens now by using the sugested 1 second to only flip the sail?  

how do you keep the inside rail weighted to carve so tight with head high curtains of water while no part of y9ur body is touching any part of youre boardbnor rig?  

how do you jump your feet off the board togehter when the front foot if still in the strap?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9136

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"wasting everyone's time...to get his rocks off at everyone else's expense."


There we go, a bit of unintended honesty about himself.

isobars needs to study haiku poetry to learn how to reduce his genius to just a few weighty phases.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1064

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
"isobars needs to study haiku poetry to learn how to reduce his genius to just a few weighty phases.

Great idea. Add Bendover to the list. Even isobar's posts are short in comparison, and at least he bothers to use capitalization, and knows how to spell.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1702

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
hopefully PP is satisfied with this visual & we can end the argument. Iso's is correct in that there are many different ways to jibe other than the step jibe. The problem is that the OP is trying to learn the step jibe & Iso's is advising him to do the Iso/slam jibe.


Coach, the jibes you posted...a snap jibe and the aerial jibe (what ABK calls a jump jibe) are not planing jibes. I pointed out several pages ago that what Iso was describing was a snap jibe. A jibe that is not planed through, with its attendant considerable loss of speed.

This thread was about planing jibes. Grantmac, alap etc are all working on planing jibes. As you know there are many ways to plane through a jibe besides the step jibe, including:

Sail flip first jibe (sometimes called European style, though plenty do it in the States)
Duck jibe
Switchstance jibe
Switchstance duck jibe
Monkey jibe
Reverse monkey jibe
Pirouhette jibe
Essex duck (or donkey jibe)
Backwinded jibe

and so on. All planing jibes, unlike Iso's. The new edition of Tricktionary contains instruction on loads of different planing jibes, for people interested in planing jibes beyond or instead of the step jibe.

_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com


Last edited by PeconicPuffin on Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bendover



Joined: 13 Sep 2011
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bendiover to list......

all isobars quotes for jibe....... that are miracles..

miss point so bad and create prevarication opportunity to not explain

Q1 change in decade of writ8ng what happnes in secondbfor proove
Q2 turning and all jibe with walls of water while no weight on rail tail with no weight on board so chop no problem but only 2-3;seconds toal time.. no loss of speed acceleration actualy. miracle of time and space
q3. jumping both feet up and down wjile in strap or 2.

all isobars quotes

now watch prevaricstion to not explain miracles. and then continue all you're posts arguing with miracles..
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2160
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Mr. Dover

I can see from the amount of time you've spent in reply (and research)
that this is very important to you. Being a bit thick myself, I was hoping
perhaps you could elucidate the salient points of jibe exit improvement in your comments.

Thanks,

-Craig

Bendover wrote:
we dont know isobans. and dont think you can so never will attempt to actualy specif8caly and completly answer the questions so you are prevaricating like for question1.

and yes actualy realy want to know.....

{a lot of very pertinent stuff}

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daviddk



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

I've never seen anyone else -- since Monte told me to do it in the late '80s -- spin the sail as I'm describing. Everyone I've seen, including Josh Stone in the video above, grabs the mast or boom and maintain contact with the rig during the jibe. It works for me in wind speeds from 3 mph to 50 (60 in mile-high NM).


1. You've never seen anyone else do a no handed sail flip?

2. Why then, if you are the only windsurfer capable of doing this mystical move, do you try to teach mere mortals how to do it?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18693

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fail to see why so many people think WFO jibes must be broad in radius and sequential in execution. Jeez, guys ... think outside your little boxes. Are you THAT afraid to take both hands off your booms for a fraction of a second? Are you too uncoordinated to switch your feet at the same time you jibe your board and rig? I admit it; I AM too uncoordinated to do that Irish jig footwork known as the step jibe. It's over-complicated and takes too long when it leads to a stall.

"Take your front foot part way out of its strap, then move that heel part way towards or past the centerline, then transfer weight to it, then shuffle off to Buffalo before FINALLY moving your lee/back foot forward to keep your weight forward because you lost too much speed while you were dancing a jig and doing everything sequentially?"

REALLY? By that time you COULD have crossed your own incoming wake at full speed for zero lost ground.

I've consistently and often answered Ben's/Isobans'/maybe Colorit's questions in many prior posts, and PP's and Coach's comments and accusations are just getting too stupid to respond to. Your posts range from goofy to asinine to outright lying (unless you really can't read) about what I've posted in print, and Ben's lousy typing is a deliberate attempt to distance himself from his former incarnation as the more articulate Isobans (and highly likely Colorit, plus maybe a few more names I forget before that). All of you are wasting everyone's time and discouraging gullible people from opening their eyes to alternative and much more versatile techniques that have worked for many people with open minds and are a ton of fun. That's shameful.
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Bendover



Joined: 13 Sep 2011
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as know, prevarication..

Critical of all other t3chniques, chase posters text, chase posters id, chase posters personal, claim forumdecorums..... dont answer Questions but say answered.. this thread for q1..... how obtuse

All expected ans predicted.
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