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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1064

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
Take a look at this jibe - Starts at 53 seconds. It's strap to strap (type) jibe, meaning that the sail is flipped before the feet switch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwfZB4CQ3hw

Nice jibe, but the Essex Duck (or Donkey) jibe at 38 seconds and the fully planing Backwind jibe at 47 seconds are smoother. Quite amazing how Whitey dances on the board with his 100+ kg. But he's one to know how to enter a jibe with speed - he held the production board speed record for a number of years.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2159
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Mr boardsurfr,

It's been a while (about 3 years) since I was on a 9.5 sail. Most of the time
these days I am in the Gorge, but I'm a fan of TTGG. With me it's more
of a feel thing. There comes a point in almost every jibe where the power
in the sail goes to almost zero. I wait for that moment, and then I spin
the sail around it's COE. Granted that's a lot slower on huge gear and
happens at a different part of the carve, but my recollection is that does work.

On huge gear (9.5 an 150 ltrs), I'm almost always struggling for
enough power, so it's very likely I'll step jibe because for me in
marginal conditions that helps keep the board planning.

If I'm powered up (even on a 7.5). I'll probably switch after the flip.

.02

-Craig



boardsurfr wrote:
! When sailing in "typical Gorge conditions" (35 mph wind, big chop/swell), board speed for almost all sailors will be slow - less than 20 mph. However, since they experience an apparent wind around 40 mph, they will definitely feel very fast. When it's time to flip the sail, the windsurfer will have an apparent wind of around 20 mph coming mostly from behind. The wind will rotate the sail very quickly. A throw may be needed just to be able to reach the boom on the new side, and is certainly possible.

PeconicPuffin wrote:

The sailor is sailing with good speed, bears off smoothly (accelerating even more) so that as the board gets close to heading straight downwind the rig goes light ......there are only a few mph of wind in it.
...
Flipping the sail in "well under one second" isn't a CHOICE...the aerodynamics prevent it.

You are absolutely correct, but one may have to experience this to believe it. It's a bit similar to entering a duck jibe at full speed on flat water, and ducking a bit too early. With a board speed very close to the wind speed, the sail moves at an incredibly slow pace. Hence Andy's statement that "it is possible to duck too early" - it's just quite rare for someone learning the duck jibe.

Throwing the sail in an attempt to make the regular sail flip faster is even funnier on slalom gear in moderate wind. You typically are significantly faster than the wind entering the jibe, and it is possible to carry this speed quite deep into the turn, past dead downwind. Then, trying to throw the sail to a accelerate the rig flip does not work at all -in the best case, it slows down the board a lot, but more likely, it pushes you straight into the water.

This concept can be very hard to understand for someone who always sails slower than the wind. I recall a very experienced windsurf teacher in Cabarete whom I asked about what to do in such a situation. He absolutely did not understand the question, because it never had happened to him. He usually sailed on wave gear in chop or waves. I think it is safe to assume that isobars has a similar problem to understand what the hell you are talking about. Andy Brandt, on the other hand, can certainly explain you the necessary technique to flip the sail when still much faster than the wind dead downwind (slice & rotate, not unlike the heli tack).

In what most East Coast windsurfers call "survival conditions" (30+ knot winds and big chop), there may be a place for "throwing" the rig into the turn, and perhaps even for faster footwork. However, those are not the conditions in alap's jibe videos. For these more common "regular" conditions, a lot of isobars' advice is somewhere between "bad" and "physically impossible".

On the other hand, the step jibe as taught by ABK, Dasher, and many others is quite versatile, and works in many different conditions, from barely planing to crazy overpowered. Intermediate windsurfers can learn it in a couple of days (at least those without bad habits from years of trying on their own); PWA sailors at slalom events like Fuerteventura and Sylt with 40 knot wind do basically the same technique.

isobars wrote:
Even my 7.5 never came out until near 20, and even then only once per year in sheer desperation such as a couple of weeks in Corpus Christi in March.

Therein lies the problem. isobars never sails in conditions that are typical for much of the country. Anyone learning to jibe is quite likely to do so in 20 mph wind, give or take a few knots. But even though isobars never sails in these conditions (according to his own statements!), he still thinks he knows better than all those windsurfer who do so on a regular basis. Reminds me again of Agent Orange who knows more about climate change than thousands of climate scientists ...


Last edited by cgoudie1 on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18691

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bendover wrote:
isobars "

1x
<snip >
how do you keep the inside rail weighted to carve so tight with head high curtains of water while no part of y9ur body is touching any part of youre boardbnor rig?

how do you jump your feet off the board togehter when the front foot if still in the strap?


You almost has us (in particular, ME) going there, Isobans. I was well into a clear and useful reply when a warning bell penetrated my drugs and I went SEARCHING. Even though you deleted all your posts under the Bendover label, you left tracks in the Isobans trail. Here's a telling post from 7 years ago which indicates clearly that you're just trolling rather than searching for knowledge.

"You were publicly and repeatedly outed shortly after the first time you posted as "Isobans" long ago, and never once objected. Then when people got tired of Isobans' repetitive parodies and asked him to cease and desist, he switched to Bendover and deceived a few more yucking sycophants. One would think you'd have objected long before now if you weren't Isobans, and the Isobans to Bendover transition is about as transparent as intergalactic space. You'll have to be much more persuasive now to convince me to dig through the archives for the Colorit-Isobans link.

Just bask in it. The parody was funny the first couple of times last year, but wore thin for thinking people."

Only if you can convince me your inquiry is serious will I even think about completing that reply. I consider trolls the scum of the earth because they waste EVERYONE's time.

So TWO good things came of that archives search:
1. You got busted.
2. So did PP, whose post back then rings hollow in this thread: any technique or move or choice you can't do, you denigrate
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18691

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
isobars wrote:
Even my 7.5 never came out until near 20, and even then only once per year in sheer desperation such as a couple of weeks in Corpus Christi in March.

Therein lies the problem. isobars never sails in conditions that are typical for much of the country. Anyone learning to jibe is quite likely to do so in 20 mph wind, give or take a few knots. But even though isobars never sails in these conditions (according to his own statements!), he still thinks he knows better than all those windsurfer who do so on a regular basis.

1. Nothing's keeping the rest of you from moving to a windier location of your choosing. I got to the Gorge for months, then multiple seasons, and then permanently only through years of time, effort, action, financial, and total career sacrifices with that goal in mind. I regret none of those sacrifices.

2. Once again, until well into my second decade of intensive windsurfing, the majority of my WSing was in Utah, New Mexico, and Texas lakes. Wind quality doesn't get much crappier. I've paid my dues.

3. That's partly WHY I now choose not to go for early planing gear or records.

4. The other part is that my fun lies in the terrain, not the wind itself, and we don't get terrain here until a 6.2 is powered up pretty consistently.

5. Knows "better"? If I know anything "better", it's because I have a more open mind than many here regarding trying new things. I've TRIED racing. I've TRIED freestyle (e.g., I've deliberately done the Puffin's faceplant ... er, Gecko ... on 12-foot longboards). I've professionally TESTED the earliest-planing boards on the planet (at the time). I've OWNED boards from 55 to 240 liters and 12 to 40 pounds. I sailed a windSUP for a year in 75-liter wave board heaven. I've launched from more than 70 sites on the Columbia River. I've TRIED beeline and blindfolded trips to highly touted destination venues with way too many skunks to make THAT mistake again. I've sailed on random lakes over much of the U.S. simply because they/the wind/and I converged by accident* on the way to somewhere else. I don't FLY on business trips from New Mexico to Florida or Washington (6 times one year) or the Delta ... I DRIVE, with a pile of WSing gear in the back, state maps on the seat, and a weather radio on the dash. I TRIED step jibing and barn-door sail rotation for almost a decade before discovering the benefits (including improving my planing jibe percentage from 1% to 20-30% in one day) and sheer joy of spinning the sail about its centerline and progressing beyond the step jibe. (The next big leap came when I bought my first small wave board.) I've sailed hundreds of boards from skinny-ass old school wave boards to 2018 stubbies, and carefully chosen the ones that suit my sailing style best. There are even a couple of stubbies in my fleet, primarily because I'm going to get old one of these years (if I beat the odds) and might have to dial down my sailing style.

* Buffalo Bill Reservoir, Cody, Wyoming, on my way from Albuquerque to Yellowstone circa 1990. Blowing like holy crap, so I bought an Angulo board in town around suppertime, rigged my 3.7, and hit the water instead of eating supper. "Best day ever" ... until it got trumped by the day that Angulo board bumped my fully planing jibe rate past 50% on the crappiest WSing lake in NM.

I think I've paid my dues well enough to have the right to cherry pick my conditions now.

How does any of this apply to this thread? Simple: ignore the people -- including other WSers, WSing or gym instructors, doctors, preachers, commanding officers, political parties, and almost anyone else -- trying to tell you theirs is the only way to do anything. You want your skill quiver broader, not narrower, and different individuals suit different techniques better. I'm NOT advising ignoring all instructors/doctors/bosses, but AM saying there are some renowned DOOZIES out there and that flogging a horse that's going nowhere may be counterproductive.
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Bendover



Joined: 13 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry.. mistake trys deleted. Please answer the three questions. if not for us, for all others to benefit!?


You're own writing words over decades really seems to be that you can go from hooked in footstraps to hokked in and footstraps by jibing in a second while going really fast (zero speed loss clear through the jibe......this jibe IS an acceleration. The result is often that board speed is faster just after the 135-degree swerve (on the broad reach exit) than it was before the swerve (on the incoming beam reach) quoted below. Are you changing how dlfast that happens now by using the sugested 1 second to only flip the sail? You're writing the sail ane feet jibe LESS than second or well under a second or quarter of a second quotes below. 

how do you keep the inside rail weighted to carve so tight with head high curtains walls of water while no part of y9ur body is touching any part of youre boardbnor rig when you   leave the board with both feet at once to let the board clear chop without impediment? quote below

how do you jump your feet off the board togehter when the front foot if still in the strap?


quotes from

isobars" 

1x 

Back foot on rail, thrust hips, THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO, switch both feet simultaneously, DONE* ... all faster than you can say the words normally.  

* No, I didn't forget to type "raking the sail back and hooking in"; when done right, the harness lines fling out via centrifugal force and hook in while both feet are off the deck switching stance and the sail is spinning. All that remains is getting in the straps, FFF or BFF, if your feet didn't engage one (rare), or both (hen's teeth) straps when they came down.  

2. 

Between planting the back foot on the rail and getting back into the straps, I unweight and simultaneously switch both feet to their exit positions. Done. That footwork takes maybe a quarter of a second.  

Want proof? Stand up and stagger your feet so one's in the front foot strap location, the other is "on the rail". Now unweight them ... i.e., hop them off the floor just high enough to clear the front strap with your rail foot... and switch 'em. If that takes you more than a quarter of a second, you're defying gravity, because a 3"-high-jump lasts only 0.250 seconds. Do the math.  

If you can do those 6 or 7 steps quicker than that, I bow to thee.  

Timing of the foot switch depends on many factors, as does the sail flip, but the only handwork from inbound beam reach to exit beam reach is sliding the front hand forward, then a THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO about as fast as you can say it, well under a second, at which point you are sheeted in and accelerating on the new broad reach, maybe even hooked in.  

3. 

The more powered I am when I begin my jibe, the sooner in the turn I must oversheet (back hand in, front hand forward and into the turn); otherwise it actually takes muscle power or is not feasible at all, in which cases I swerve back a bit to windward to lighten the back hand load, THEN oversheet dramatically, THEN jibe. The first time you cannot oversheet, then solve the problem by thrusting the front hand forward and in as you oversheet, the rig will instantly feel like a mast and boom with no sail on them, a big bright light will go on over your head, you will turn like you’ve never turned before, you will be so enthralled by it that you will forget to flip the sail, and you will get backwinded and fall in.  

The next time that light comes on you will know to jibe the sail sooner.  

That same combination of oversheeting with the back hand and driving the front hand forward and into the turn will also convert a mild leeward change of direction into a hard slash, if accompanied by appropriate foot pressure. On a board designed to turn, pulling on that back hand as you slash will provide much the same sensation as grabbing a flagpole as you run by it; you’ll want your cap and shades snugly fastened. 

4,, 

I suspect semantics are involved, in that while we shouldn't concentrate on lee rail foot pressure at the expense of everything else we must do, that foot pressure is still vital to carving all the way through. My (and others') rail pressure improved by leaps and bounds the first time I forgot about "rail foot pressure" and just thrust my hips into the turn. Letting the sail pull us into the turn does much the same thing, and overlaps significantly with hip trust. Both, whether separately or together, actively (just not so consciously) generate and maintain an active carving input.  

55 

Just one of several reasons I prefer fast, tight jibes: screw flat spots. I'm often unhooked for less than three seconds when I'm doin' it right. 

6. 

Since jibing the board requires only a swish of the hips -- not much more than one second once that inside foot is on its rail -- the objective is to jibe sail and feet in LESS than that second. When done right this takes you from the incoming beam reach to the outgoing broad reach, with no loss of speed, hooked in and groping for the straps, within the span of a couple of heartbeats. That seems pretty danged efficient to me.  

7. 

THROW the back hand away hard and much sooner, and THROW the mast across your face hard a millisecond later. This places the new side of the boom floating in the air right where you want it; GRAB it and GO . . . sail away at full power and without having lost any speed from the incoming screaming broad reach.  

My best (zero speed loss clear through the jibe, as fluid as a simple swerve, no bobbles at all, unhooked for just 2-3 seconds) come when I throw the sail at about 4:00 and am sheeted in and still accelerating by 7:00. No more reaching for or pulling on the sail, front or back hand. This bidness of waiting or maneuvering until the wind rotates the sail is  
s-l-o-w-w-w-w and interferes with . . . you know . . . JIBING.  

It may sound like on screen like an advanced, specialty form of jibe, but a) it got me over a many-years non-jibing plateau and b) my first one, the one that changed windsurfing for me, came when it was jibe right freaking NOW or hit the shore 30 feet downwind and parallel to my beam reach.  

Setup? SPEED, inside foot on its rail behind the front strap, knees flexed to the point youre looking forward below the boom, eyes locked onto your intended path out of the jibe, weight on your toes but spine upright (you curtsey, not bow), fromt arm straight out stiff-arming oncoming tacklers, back hand sheeting the sail in grazing your leg so the sail foot doesnt hit the chop. Then -- all in the space of about one second -- swing your hips into the turn as though bumping the car door closed, THROW, THROW, GRAB, and GO, and youre sheeted in on the new broad reach WFO. Its effortless and completely fluid. Theres wind in the sail only while youre sheeted in and accelerating; the rest of the time, while youre oversheeted and flipping the sail, it seems to be in a vacuum.  
8, 

Read my jibe tips and get back to us. Does your approach take you from sheeted in on the incoming beam reach to sheeted in -- maybe even hooked in -- on the outgoing broad reach in the space of one heartbeat with zero loss of speed through the entire jibe?  

9. 
You missed a vital part: In the space of a heartbeat. When you really get these things wired, you can be sheeted in on a flat-out starboard beam reach one second and sheeted in on an even faster port broad reach one second later. Any loss of speed can be so brief and so inconsequential that neither jiber nor observer perceives it.  

Its like banking a hard shot off a pool table rail. The winds not going to do that for you, because it doesnt even touch the sail when you spin it hard at the right time. The actual sail jibe, from sheeted in on starboard to sheeted in on port, probably takes half a second for sails under about 5 meters, and is often completed before the board points downwind. This form of jibe is basically a very hard, very high-g-force, almost instantaneous, 135-degree slash from one beam reach to the opposite broad reach, with a sail spin and foot switch thrown in during the sub-second your feet arent busy steering the board.  

And, done right, this jibe IS an acceleration, because it is little more than a quick slash off the wind. The tiny bit of speed given up momentarily to the second with no power and to the wall of water it throws up is quickly regained the instant we sheet in on the new broad reach. The result is often that board speed is faster just after the 135-degree swerve (on the broad reach exit) than it was before the swerve (on the incoming beam reach), just as one accelerates in a 45-degree swerve from beam to broad reach. The sensation is that of riding that pool ball into and out of that rail, not of driving a sluggish Miata through an autocross chicane.  

10.. 

Hop jibe" would be accurate when I leave the board with both feet at once to let the board clear chop without impediment, but on smooth water my feet usually slide simultaneously, maintaining weightless contact with the board all or most of the time. It's just a matter of degree and height, not a different technique. All that bearing off to gain speed and stepping and pivoting and heels and balls of our feet and sliding hands and touching the mast and reaching around the mast and waiting for the wind to "flip" the sail stuff is time-consuming and unnecessary ... options we can dispense with if we like to just Git Er Done and get on with the next reach rather than dally over the U-turn. All that's really necessary is this, in a beam reach: 1) placing our back foot on the rail, 2) thrusting our hips, 3) spinning the sail, 4) switching our feet simultaneously (in ballet it's called a changement), 5) grabbing the free-floating boom, and 6) sailing away, some of those parts (especially 2 though 5) done virtually simultaneously, and with no perceptible loss of speed, all in the space of a couple of heartbeats. I'd never be able to plane my sinker wave boards through a jibe as wide as Willy does in that video. 

11, 

When that gets easy, do it at warp speed in random, harsh terrain. Jibing on wave/swell faces overtaxes my balance; much tighter jibes in truly gnarly garbage come easier to me simply because they must be very quick, chop be damned. Because they're quick, I don't have time to slow down; my sail is depowered for less than one second when I do 'em right. Some are little more than literally a 90-degree horizontal bounce off a piece of chop, during which I switch feet and boom sides.  

That is the heart and soul of my best jibes. I spin the sail and let go completely. While it spins freely, untouched, I unweigh both feet and switch them simultaneously; I'm touching neither board nor rig as the rig and I spin in the air. When I time it right, as I did most times until recently, I land on the board near both straps, with the new side of the boom simply floating in mid-air in front of me ... like magic, as you say. I grab it, sheet in, and accelerate even more because I'm in the new broad reach. The result of all this is what feels like acceleration throughout the jibe, as the only time I'm not fully powered is during the sub-second sail spin. One second I'm fully wound out in the incoming beam reach, the next I'm accelerating under full power in the new broad reach; the whole jibe feels like acceleration, not deceleration. (Anybody who thinks this is self-aggrandizement doesn't understand stoke; any aggressive sailor can learn to do it on a board <100 liters; it's how I learned to jibe in the absence of any available lessons.)  

12 

Mine, OTOH, are carved, but turning off the tail rather than the whole rail. They throw up a head-high curtain of water. They are, however, timing jibes; if I mistime the sails spin by a half-second, it's crash or lucky recovery time, 

13. 

For several years I ripped all the way through at least 90% of my jibes with no perceptible loss of speed, in most cases, in any terrain (presuming good wind 




14, and on and 9n and on and on.... 


You're own writing words over decades really seems to be that you can go from hooked in footstraps to hokked in and footstraps by jibing in a second while going really fast. Are you changing how dlfast that happens now by using the sugested 1 second to only flip the sail? 

how do you keep the inside rail weighted to carve so tight with head high curtains of water while no part of y9ur body is touching any part of youre boardbnor rig? 

how do you jump your feet off the board togehter when the front foot if still in the strap?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prove you're not Isobans and I'll consider answering your questions ... at least the ones not already addressed ad nauseum.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1702

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
There comes a point in almost every jibe where the power
in the sail goes to almost zero. I wait for that moment, and then I spin
the sail around it's COE.


I would say that the majority of successful sail flips in the "almost zero" zone are around the COE, at least in jibes with wind speed under 25mph. There's no power in the sail.

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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Prove you're not Isobans and I'll consider answering your questions ... at least the ones not already addressed ad nauseum.


Prove you can jibe.

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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2618

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a visual learner so trying to visualize the jibe Iso is describing I always come up with this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2z3yeM5vnc

This jibe throws up a huge wall of water, loses very little ground & is very fast. The only difference is Iso would jump in the air & throw the sail after the nose of the board has passed dead down wind. Obviously on this type of jibe you do not plane all the way through it, but with a 7 meter sail in 20 mph winds you would immediately get back on a plane giving you the illusion of planing through your jibe. Who knows, this could be one of Iso's many proteges?

Here is a tutorial on Iso's jibe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JSGjGgN41Y

The key points are lots of power with very little speed exactly as Iso describes.

So hopefully PP is satisfied with this visual & we can end the argument. Iso's is correct in that there are many different ways to jibe other than the step jibe. The problem is that the OP is trying to learn the step jibe & Iso's is advising him to do the Iso/slam jibe. We would be in the exact same problem if the OP was trying to learn a Duck jibe & Iso was giving him advice on how to Iso/slam jibe.

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18691

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
I would say that the majority of successful sail flips in the "almost zero" zone are around the COE, at least in jibes with wind speed under 25mph.

I've never seen anyone else -- since Monte told me to do it in the late '80s -- spin the sail as I'm describing. Everyone I've seen, including Josh Stone in the video above, grabs the mast or boom and maintain contact with the rig during the jibe. It works for me in wind speeds from 3 mph to 50 (60 in mile-high NM).
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