myiW Current Conditions and Forecasts Community Forums Buy and Sell Services
 
Hi guest · myAccount · Log in
 SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RegisterRegister 
Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 25, 26, 27  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To find out about the front hand, I would try delaying flip and sail clew first. Then try to flip early, like really early. Experience both extremes and your feeling will greatly improve. Always look ahead, refrain from looking down just "steps" ahead of you. Look at the curve, picture a nice smooth turn, then as you carve with your head up looking far ahead your body will use the front hand to dial how much angle and whip to give to the sail.

Try a few duck jibes too, great move where looking ahead is even more meaningful.

_________________
*NEW* - Manu's Windsurfing Blog, The STORE!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you PP and manu!

Take a look on my yest. vid:
https://youtu.be/g44K9iJc0u4

This is my latest try, it is go pro head mounted and hence it is not very descriptive, .. there are 4 jibes and the best one is also a 4x slow down in the very end of a clip

As for my technique Qs, I actually realised that I hadn't watched Dasher's vid for few years. I bought it about 10 years ago and watched it religiously first 5 years.

However I bumped into few problems with his approach.

The biggest one is his advice on loading the back foot straight in the beginning. Combined with "oversheeting" it created a vicious circle for me - the more you sheet, the more you load the back foot, the more the board plows and the more you loose speed. Peter Hart has a great article on this:
http://peter-hart.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Happy_Planing-gybe-Sept-14.pdf

This also boils to the fact that the most important thing in the initiation is inclining the mast and your body into the turn, and this is quiet low on Dashers list, well after ankles, knees... And the sooner you address it, the better your chances, and on his list it is actually number 7

Another problem was that the sequence of 12 steps will take 12 seconds or so... and also turns out it is not a sequence.

Like first four steps may take 5 seconds and those are really sequential.
the next four steps are the most important and those are SIMULTANEOUS, not sequential steps.

And then the last 4 are sequential again, but those have to be ninja fast.

Regardless I have watched his video again this week, about 10 times.
With the things I know now, it still great stuff, just don't take it as a gospel, as always use critical thinking

I realised that I completely forgot about step 9 - inclining my hips into the turn as you bring sail outside (this also extends your front hand automatically, see my prev post Q). I was opening the sail and bringing it over the centerline and then proceeding with a flip. Kinda in a state of a balance. Instead of simultaneously kinda falling into inside with my body (so here I was unconsciously compensating kinda throwing my body in, again see my prev post Q)

This mistake was quiet easy and natural to fix for me - first on land and yesterday on the water.

The improvement was obvious and instant.

The main issue I have now - I still extend up in the very end, say after stepping forward with my new front hand. Couple times after yanking the mast forward I was finding the boom under my chin - kinda I can hit myself with a boom from below.

So the Q now: do you know or can you suggest a trick, or mental step for not extending up in the end?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3371

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

corner number one: all too typical late with sail flip. can't see your feet.

#2. not enough juice to plane thru

#3 same. you need more speed. therefore, bigger stuff

#4 flipping sail too late. again, cannot see your feet.

agreed about dasher's video. it was another age of gear, and aruba. super lit up jibes with narrow glide oriented boards are different than short, power hungry boards of today in less windy venues.

furthermore, sails back in the good old days did not twist off at the leech much, so one had to over sheet to handle the so lit up, especially when doing step jibes.

as above, try some duck jibes. what's to lose by trying? will get you to trust the carve, and get to "power on" that much sooner. today's kits require power, all the time.

BTW, if you try doing that water start in the beginning of video in the surf you will get worked. keep your front leg down to act as a keel.

cheers

_________________
www.aerotechsails.com
www.exocet-original.com
www.iwindsurf.com
http://www.epicgearusa.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3549

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I can see is both your hands. Your front hand is closer to the mast than the harness line & your back hand is not very far from the harness line. I slide both my hands farther away from the mast to get more leverage on the rig & allow me to push the rig farther forward.

Coachg



Laydown 2.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  182.81 KB
 Viewed:  6819 Time(s)

Laydown 2.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes Greg, I noticed this too. but I don't think it is typical. I pay extra attention to placing those back before unhooking, but again may be I only think that I do. Looks like even with extra attention it is not 100% dialed into muscle memory. But because it is in the very beginning in preparation phase and I already have a feel, it will be easy for me to address, I think.
Plus my battery died almost instantly, so only 4 jibes were recorded and by far not the best ones. Regardless main problem as I see it now - standing up in the end. Not sure how to fight it - at this moment the mental focusing capacity is already exhausted Smile

JB - waterstarts is not my problem, from 3.5 to 10.0, easy-peasy. But I noticed this foot placement too, first on the water when doing it, and then in the video; and actually put those frames on purpose - this clip is a review of the Blast. Typically on 6.0 I go with smaller 103 board, 64 cm. This is 115 , 66 cm, but effectively it is much wider, stability speaking. Like 66 cm is the width for a drag (not much more than 64 on my smaller board). But because of outline it provides way more stability when not planning. On 103 I would be keeping front foot in the water longer. On this one it was not needed. Just one subtle pumping move with your hands, with both feet on the board and you up.

As for not able to see my feet - I guess it is a good thing, with helmet mount camera, means I don't look down Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh one other thing.

why do I think I did step #9 - hips in - correctly?

because I got this scissoring feeling - the tail gave in, even so slightly, but unmistakably, - laterally, sideways. It is only possible with weight on back foot and my centre mass inside the turn.

I got the feel first time ever.
Plus the whole flip was faster and hence more stable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see one thing: You sheet out as soon as you begin your jibe, which stops driving the nose down, and you bounce through the turn. A corrective for this (in addition to sheeting for the first quarter of the carve) is to apple moderate downward pressure with the front hand. But you've got to sheet in smoothly or your nose will bounce. Every time the nose goes up it means the tail is plowing.

Sheet in more. Get the carving rail engaged more. You might also try bending your knees more...lower your butt another 6". The carve will benefit from this.

Re Dasher's video, I haven't watched it recently but he never taught "load the back foot". His sequence was to unhook without disturbing the rig, move your weight to the front foot ever so slightly to unweight the back foot so it can step over and GENTLY land on the downwind side of the board (he calls this the Charmin Step) and then apply even a little more pressure on the front foot to bear the board off before beginning the carve (so you're sailing instead of carving through the first portion of the 180 degree turn). Sheeting in (if your hips are moving forward and in) loads the mast foot, which keeps the carving rail engaged, and it momentarily pulls you forward, driving through the front footstrap. If sheeting in is loading your back foot you aren't extending your front arm and letting the rig pull you forward and over the carving rail.

_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a brief review, move your front hand farther back. When you unhook, look to feed more power onto the board as you get low, stay sheeted in. Initiate the turn, then oversheet and lean to the other side with the intent to carve the water hard, maintain the carve (you may try different back foot position, inboard, outboard, front, back.).

Somewhere around downwind initiate the flip with a pumping motion so that the flip contributes to keeping the plane. When you flip, think about board trim (difficult part there), because you want to flip and pump while maintaining carving and when you get the sail back, drive all of its power again back on the board.

The bigger the sail the greater the swinging motion. Watch overpowered slalom guys.

_________________
*NEW* - Manu's Windsurfing Blog, The STORE!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
he never taught "load the back foot".


Dasher's DVD, step #5 @26:05
"your weight moves slowly onto inside rail edging the board into the carve" - and then there is a frame with back foot on the edge and the arrow

regardless his DVD is probably the best one and as such he should be very specific about the primary reason of carving - inclination of the rig into the turn, and loading the mast base (forward commitment). Edging the board is an icing on the cake, try carve just by edging, or try carve inclining the rig...

When you incline the rig the edging comes naturally. (Recall how you advice to oversheet more and to lower the body - those are keys, not "soft in the ankles" or "start the jybe by edging the rail" - which is equivalent of loading back foot - how else one can understand this?)

He also doesn't say a word about the feet load - in the very beginning - no load at all on back foot. And as the jybe progresses, more and more... and at the moment of the foot switch - zero load on old front foot (otherwise how you will take it out?)

And again the most brutal mistake - is sequential presentation of steps 5...8.
Starting with least important - and for what? to memorise it as going up from foot to head, vs. first four steps, going from top to the bottom.

No I stand by my opinion - his DVD is very good, but it has serious mistakes. For me now - I know about those. Just don't take it as a gospel (but I take nothing as a gospel)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alap wrote:

Dasher's DVD, step #5 @26:05
"your weight moves slowly onto inside rail edging the board into the carve" - and then there is a frame with back foot on the edge and the arrow


Yes, but the weight rolls on both feet and the the mast base (through the boom). It's not about solely loading the back foot. You're misunderstanding. Nobody teaches back foot loaded carving (unless they're teaching a slam jibe, which is a different move, and which is not planed through.)

alap wrote:
he should be very specific about the primary reason of carving - inclination of the rig into the turn, and loading the mast base (forward commitment).


No no no. Neither of those will initiate carving. You can do both of those things sailing in a straight line...watch Bonaire freestylers and you'll see it all the time. Rolling the body weight over the carving rail (which includes the back foot applying pressure) is what puts the board on its rail.

alap wrote:
When you incline the rig the edging comes naturally. (Recall how you advice to oversheet more and to lower the body - those are keys, not "soft in the ankles" or "start the jybe by edging the rail" - which is equivalent of loading back foot - how else one can understand this?)


The following three things happen simultaneously:

1. The front arm extends the rig forward and into the turn, while
2. The back hand sheets the rig, while
3. Following the extended front arm, the hips come in and over the downwind front footstraps (approximately), which puts the sailor's weight over the carving rail. The back foot is applying some downward pressure. The front foot is driving forward (on some bigger boards it may actually be lifting). Mast foot pressure is keeping the nose down and driving.

alap wrote:
No I stand by my opinion - his DVD is very good, but it has serious mistakes. For me now - I know about those. Just don't take it as a gospel (but I take nothing as a gospel)


You're entitled to your opinion. I think you've tangled up some of the ideas he's expressing...that's my opinion. What's most important in this thread at the moment is to be clear that body weight over the downwind rail is what carves the board. There are a dozen freestyle moves in which you can watch the rig be tilted forward and downwind while the board maintains a straight line planing. Some of them are quite spectacular.

As for your video clip, I think you need to sheet in smoothly as you enter the carve...the video shows you sheeting out.

I'm attaching a slam jibe photo for your amusement. This is back foot only jibing.



slam jibe.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  363.14 KB
 Viewed:  6733 Time(s)

slam jibe.jpg



_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 25, 26, 27  Next
Page 6 of 27

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

myiW | Weather | Community | Membership | Support | Log in
like us on facebook
© Copyright 1999-2007 WeatherFlow, Inc Contact Us Ad Marketplace

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group