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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
1. I've been banging my head against the wall on planing away from step gybes for about 10 months ...

2. Getting weight forward is definitely the problem, as is a late flip because the pressure doesn't leave the sail (because I'm stalling the board).

3. Pulling down on the back of the boom as I open the sail before the flip seems to help with board trim but if that's an essential part of the gybe then how can you flip the sail first?

4. I promised myself I'd plane at least one this year


1. I banged my head against your stone wall and kept grinding for many years ... and I sailed a LOT in planing conditions all year long (no videos or useful instructors back then). I finally got smart enough to blend many tips and techniques from many sources into something that works for me and many others in virtually any conditions with any gear I've ever seen below 8.0 and 125L. (I don't know about larger sails, but suspect it applies to much larger boards). My tutorial is readily available in multiple languages from websites on multiple continents, and is often cited here.

2. As my tutorial explains in much more detail, waiting until the pressure leaves the sail promotes stalls. I take charge of the sail by shutting it off when *I*, not my decreasing board speed, dictate. Many sailors have told me that distinction really helped them, and the more overpowered we are at that moment, the more vital it is.

3. "Open the sail before the flip"? Opening my sail is an integral (50%) and vital part of my sail flip. It's the first "Throw" of the jibe mantra that got me from non-planing jibes to very consistent full-speed jibes regardless of chop, swell, lulls, or gusts.

4. We've all heard and said that hundreds of times. I know of only three WSers who even claim to have learned to carve planing jibes in their first few years at this sport. Lee was born knowing how to jibe, an unknown kid from The Dalles 25 years ago was doing nose fast tacks on tiny sinkers, and one other prodigy who shall remain anonymous claims to have planed through his first attempt and never looked back. According to my poll many years ago and extensive first-hand observation right up through last Monday, most of us Earthling schmucks take 5 to 20 years ... some apparently giving up altogether even trying to plane all the way through after tens of thousands of stalled jibes.

What planet are YOU from? Smile

Mike \m/


Last edited by isobars on Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're comfortable sailing clew first after switching your feet keep on doing it. It will keep you powered up while you get ready to flip the sail. Milliseconds count so the faster the sail goes from powered up on one tack to powered up on the new tack the better the chance of keeping on a plane. Think of the rig as an upside down triangle balanced on the base. If you were on shore in no wind picture where the rig would have to be positioned so it was balanced and stayed up by itself if you let go of it. This is the position you want it when sailing clew first with the mast downwind of the board. When the sail is flipped it needs to be in that balanced position with the mast now on the windward side of the board. Most people screw up the sail flip by grabbing the boom too soon before the mast gets over to the windward side. If you try to sheet in too soon you will get launched because you don't have the leverage to fight the pull of the sail or you will fall off a plane as you gingerly get your hands in the right position. When you flip the sail reach under with your front hand, grab the new side and pull the rig all the way into the wind until it is in the balanced position and only then reach far back with your new back hand and grab the boom . As you sheet in let your front hand slide all the way back to the harness line to get even more leverage. This is how people are able to do those effortless no handed sail flips.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philodog wrote:
When you flip the sail reach under with your front hand, grab the new side and pull the rig all the way into the wind until it is in the balanced position and only then reach far back with your new back hand and grab the boom . As you sheet in let your front hand slide all the way back to the harness line to get even more leverage. This is how people are able to do those effortless no handed sail flips.


That, or "Throw, Throw, Grab, and Go", which eliminates all those steps for a MUCH quicker, faster, tighter jibe.
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1171
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of people have problems planing out of a jibe because they were barely planing when they started to turn.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but we've seen it thousands of times each summer: scores to hundreds of sailors at each Gorge venue have sailed here for decades, cross the river like very advanced sailors, and enter their jibes very fast, then just give up, let their speed drop to near zero, wait for the ambient wind to rotate their sail, and start all over again from scratch. They make no attempt to plane all the way through, yet if we asked them, 10 to 1 says they'd say "Sure, I make all my jibes." Translation: "I stay dry and at some point plane away."

That's their prerogative, but kudos to GRANT for aspiring to higher goals.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1731

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See Westenders point...the problem you (or the rest of us) have during the sail flip is as often as not created much earlier in the jibing process, by either:

1. not entering the jibe with enough speed,
2. losing the speed by sheeting out or otherwise not keeping the board carving smoothly, which sinks the tail, which loses speed and builds up pressure in the sail, or
3. Dabbing at the carve, and making a very wide turn in which you lose all your speed sailing endlessly downwind.

For most people it's a combination of 1 and 2.

If you carry good speed in a smooth carve, either combination (sail flip before foot change, or foot change before sail flip) will work. Foot change before sail flip offers the most control, works better in bouncy conditions, and is generally recommended for the learning jiber. Foot change after offers a sweeter feeling carve (one of the reasons duck jibes are so glorious).

If the rig never goes light for you, no foot change technique is going to get you to plane out of the jibe.

How to carve with speed? Move smoothly, slowly (Andy Brandt of ABK says "the slower you move, the faster your jibe will be") and don't freeze at any time (ie common mistake is to hold the full sheeted in position during the carve because it feels great. The moment you're fully sheeted in is the moment to begin the sail flip.) Whether you think about bending at the ankles first or knees, make sure to get your hips forward and in over the downwind footstrap (approximately). In my avatar photo to the left, I'm in the carve just beginning to open the sail for the flip.

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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1214

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

philodog wrote:
Milliseconds count so the faster the sail goes from powered up on one tack to powered up on the new tack the better the chance of keeping on a plane.

If you start the sail flip with power in the sail, you may indeed just have "milliseconds" for the sail flip. A powered sail needs to be counterbalanced, so the sailors weight is to the back of the board. Flipping removes the sail pressure, and the tail will start to sink right away. So the flip must be fast.

If you use the jibe entry to depower the sail by (a) entering with lots of speed, (b) mowing your body slowly and controlled, and (c) over sheeting, your body ends up in a neutral ("surfing") position. The board can keep going for a few seconds in this stance without loosing much speed (hence "carve fascination" threatens). But if resist carve fascination and instead do as PeconicPuffin says, starting the sail flip right away, you'll have more time for the sail flip. That can help jibe beginners, and those working on planing out of the jibe. Slow becomes fast.
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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All true. My main point is the flip should be efficient. Grabbing the boom in the wrong spot, not having the rig in the perfect place before sheeting in etc will screw up the jibe no matter how good the entry. You are correct, an efficient sail flip can be slow and smooth.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19325

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
(hence "carve fascination" threatens).

Just one more reason I don't skydive. Very Happy
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1731

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
boardsurfr wrote:
(hence "carve fascination" threatens).

Just one more reason I don't skydive. Very Happy


That's funny!

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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