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My experience with a Bic/Ker foil (big buy )
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jshalabyLOeO



Joined: 03 May 2016
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: My experience with a Bic/Ker foil (big buy ) Reply with quote

I've been foiling for a few weeks now on a BIC techno / Ker foil combination and wanted to share my experiences (maybe someone has can reply to see if us big buys are seeing a pattern here):

The positive side: I love it! I've been windsurfing for 24 years and am very good at it. I bought the foil so I could do light winds. I'm 215 lb, 6 ft... so kinda big. I found the Bic techno 148L/Kerfoil (you buy the pair as a package) performed very well but had some durability problems (see below). It only took me a few hours to start getting up and going. 3 days to jibe and almost no time to tack or water start. I could easily plane in 12 mph winds with a 6.8 sail even less wind with a 7.8 sail.

The down side: The Ker foil just doesn't support the load of a big person and heavy board. The first foil split where the front wing attaches to the fuselage. It broke after about 6 hrs of use in 12-14mph winds.
The second foil split in the same spot after about 4 hrs of sailing under the same conditions. I noticed that the fuselage doesn't have any reinforcement where the front wing is mounted. It usually breaks when I start practicing my jibes. So I think it's the torsion on the fuselage that splits it in half.

Has anyone else experience breaking the fuselage the same way? I think it must be a weight thing since I see videos of people using these foils and doing jumps/flips.

Are there any better constructed foils sold such as the F4 or LP? How's the NP (I think the carbon version is an F4 but I was thinking about the aluminum one. I'd like to continue to do it but just need something that will last more than 1 day.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3534

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are not normal sized, so can glass up the foil with carbon fiber to beef it up.
Most of the $2,000 foils can handle the load of guys up to 235 lbs without damage.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 567

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're a totally normal sized guy... 6' and 215 is nothing!!
I mean, YES, we're bigger than avg... but there are tons of guys WAY bigger than you who are avid, enthusiastic and accomplished windsurfers.
And... there lots of World Cup stars from now and years ago, bigger than you - like Antoine - Anders - Patrice - and many more. The industry knows how to make gear that's reliable for big guys in severs conditions.
All windsurf gear should be able to handle the loads placed on it, by guys your size.

And for foiling... the stress you put on it jibing, is NOTHING compared to the stress it takes while being flipped and jumped and landed and crashed - by light weight guys. Meaning "those impacts" are way more severe than a big dude jibing.

My conclusion is - I like Bic stuff (always have) and I think it's well made. But if you've busted 2, they need to beef up the construction, cause there's no question they're not strong enough. Or there was a problem with that batch of foils. If you like it... stay on them... and work with them to correct it. If they don't solve it, then it seems you should get a refund and you can put it towards the carbon LP - F4 - Neil Pryde - or other well made carbon foils. I've heard the alum foils (which are very good) won't last as long as a good carbon foil, with repeated flexing. Just like there are very good alum booms. But all else being equal... if there's a lot of use and flexing, a good carbon boom with last a lot longer than a good alum boom.
Good luck Smile

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Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3534

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a reason big guys don't race motocross, road races, cars, or just about anything do to with performance.
In windsurfing, Antoine is around 235, as was Bjorn in his prime, all the speed sailors, and some of the old World Cup racer's.
And they broke gear like there is no tomorrow.
If everyone made gear catered to the big boys, the prices would go sky high...more than now.
And most breakages are accredited to what is known as an ACCIDENT. Which is not normal use, sailing around at 22 mph and not falling catastrophically.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 567

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still say... the Bic foil should not break with typical use, which include falls, when used by guys that are 215 lbs. (or even more) !!
Believe me... if there's a real problem they will make it stronger at some point, as they go forward... or that model will fade away.
(BTW - I'm not saying there's a big problem with this foil. I haven't done any research about it, at all. Just 1 guy who's reporting on iW that he's busted 2.)

This growing windfoil discipline within the sport of windsurfing, is just starting to get more data... with more and more average windsurfers getting into it.
And... as the industry gets a bigger and bigger sample of what's working and what's not... it will improve in all areas (performance, reliability, price, features, etc.).
After some time, the best designs will prosper. And the poorer designs will evolve (or disappear).

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Greg
Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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Brian.bigfella@gmail.com



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To emphasize what others have said, you're not "big", you're well within the range of what manufactures consider "normal". As a 6'3, 280 pound guy I can tell you that it isn't really until you hit 250+ that you have to start asking equipment to do stuff it wasn't designed for. And modern windsurfing gear is pretty darn good at letting I guy like me sail like a "normal" person without destroying it. At least not for a few seasons. Dave White is about my size and does freestyle stuff on 100L boards that boggle the mind.

Granted, I don't know much about foiling. But if it requires being less than 200 pounds it's going to have a pretty limited market and exclude the fastest windsurfers, which seems stupid. So I don't think it's you, I think there's probably a design or manufacturing flaw with Bic's foil. I would contact them and ask what they suggest as the maximum rider weight. If it's anything less than 100kg they need to state that before they sell it.
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Wind-NC.com



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 883
Location: Formerly Cape Hatteras, now Burlington, VT!

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jshalaby, sorry to hear that you're having problems, that is a bummer!

I just want to put it out there- if you want something rock solid, get an AHD AFS-1. It has a very thick full carbon construction, with a unique method of attaching the wings that utilizes a huge bearing surface to distribute the loads.

They also designed their own fin box, which is "over engineered" to guarantee durability. This is good and bad- Because you either need to buy one of their boards with the foil, or get a separate fin box and install it in your existing board. Cost on the fin box is about $150. The good part though, is that if you do it right, it will last for seasons upon seasons upon seasons of heavy use. I know this to be true because it has been a product since 2010, and they started working on it in 2006! (give or take) So, this is not a new development that is still working out the kinks...

https://shop.wind-nc.com/collections/windsurf-and-sup-foils

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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 567

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, totally agree with the points Brian and Andy made!!
To add to one comment Brian mentioned -
Right... but I don't think they will put a 100kg max sailor size for this. Either the 2 incidents that this thread is about, is an isolated situation... or they will beef up their foil... or they will fade from the market. IMO the reason they couldn't say something like a weight max. is that it's even more important to define "the usage parameters" if they want to go down the path of "restrictions". The "impact loading / material stresses" that would happen to a foil when a 150 lb guy lands a loop, are way more than the stress that occurs when a 225 lb guy does a basic foiling jibe. So if they want to restrict things, they'd have to start there (I think). And at least two of the foil makers websites show guys doing loops, so they can't really say "don't do loops, or your warrantee is void".
And regarding Bic, in general they build stout gear, and are well known for that (and that's why I think if there is a problem with this, they will fix it eventually).
Two months ago, I asked a Bic rep if the board they're selling for use with their foil, has a beefed up deep Tuttle box. And he told me, no it's their standard box and yes it is waranteed. Bic makes it's own boards and finboxes, they're not made in the same place that most boards are made, and they are more confident in their build method than some others are.
So I'm just sayin' Bic has a lot of experience with this stuff, and it's a good bet it'll be resolved.

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Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 978

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wind-NC.com wrote:

I just want to put it out there- if you want something rock solid, get an AHD AFS-1.

Andy usually knows what he's talking about, so I do not doubt the rock-solid claim.
But the foil test in the recent German surf magazine states that the AFS-1 foil is very hard to control, and requires more skills than any of the other foils in the test in jibes. The board AFS-1 is also much narrower than any of the other foil boards in the test. surf also tested the AFS-2 foil, and stated it was their first choice over the AFS-1, without any doubt. However, the AFS-2 might not yet be available.
The Neil Prude aluminum foil also did very well in the test, and got comments about the very solid connections. It can be disassembled, making transport easier.
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Wind-NC.com



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 883
Location: Formerly Cape Hatteras, now Burlington, VT!

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:

Andy usually knows what he's talking about, so I do not doubt the rock-solid claim.
But the foil test in the recent German surf magazine states that the AFS-1 foil is very hard to control, and requires more skills than any of the other foils in the test in jibes. The board AFS-1 is also much narrower than any of the other foil boards in the test. surf also tested the AFS-2 foil, and stated it was their first choice over the AFS-1, without any doubt. However, the AFS-2 might not yet be available.
The Neil Prude aluminum foil also did very well in the test, and got comments about the very solid connections. It can be disassembled, making transport easier.


Yes, the AFS-1 with original wing is sensitive and is a great cross over wing for SUPping in waves, too. The bonus there is that if you put your time in on it, it rewards with sports car maneuverability... So as with anything it is always a trade off.

Everyone who has tried the AFS-1 has been able to get decent rides within ten or fifteen minutes, so it's not like it's impossible to use or something.

If you want more stability for blasting straight line windsurf foiling, and easier jibing, they have introduced a second front wing called the MK2. It takes zero tools except for your fingers, and about 30 seconds to change wings on the AFS-1 with their unique attachment system.

I have a feeling that the mag test used the original front wing, and not the new MK2 wing. The AFS-1 with MK2 wing would be my best recommendation for rock solid durability and construction in a well performing, stable windsurf foil.

Since you mentioned it, the AFS-2 is actually available now, but it utilizes a much thinner layup in the mast and fuselage, and a regular deep tuttle box, and it's brand new... so I can't say with certainty how it would hold up for the 100kg+ folks. That said, it is regularly getting speeds of over 25 knot 500 m runs, so it is definitely a performance oriented wing if you want to drag race your buddies.

My goal in introducing the OP to the AFS-1 was to make him aware of a rock solid foil with time tested results.

The NP stuff looks really great, too, but is virtually impossible to get at the moment unless you placed an order a long time ago. They hope to be caught up within a month or two, so it won't be a huge wait if you want to go that route.

Cheers! Very Happy

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