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joethewindsufa
Joined: 10 Oct 2010 Posts: 1190 Location: Montréal
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:37 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by joethewindsufa on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rollerrider
Joined: 17 May 2003 Posts: 100
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Anyone who is committed to windsurfing and is sailing in a chronic light wind location should seriously consider a board that will also accept a foil. Forget waisting money on big heavy old school boards. |
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gregnw44
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 783 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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rollerrider wrote: | Anyone who is committed to windsurfing and is sailing in a chronic light wind location should seriously consider a board that will also accept a foil. Forget waisting money on big heavy old school boards. |
What's your definition of " a chronic light wind location"?
What typical wind speed in knots, are you talking about?
In my little part of the world, I'm trying to promote lightwind flat-water windsurfing. Our typical wind is 1 to 10 knots... lots of 5 knot days.
Anyone who will only sail when they can plane, will not windsurf here, and that's fine. But we can build up more general windsurfing, if we say it's ok to just get out on the water and cruise around in those very light winds. Of course, it's not an adrenaline rush. But if the sport emphasizes only THAT, it will kill off grass roots windsurfing (which is exactly what happened years ago).
You can't foil in wind that's 1-10 knots, averaging 5... just like you can't plane a FW in those conditions. But you can sail a longboard around, cruise, explore, etc. And doing longboard lightwind flat-water racing in those conditions can be fun for experienced sailors, and it's a fun social activity.
Of course, THIS is not for everybody. But if that's all the wind you have... and you still want to be out on the water, then gliding around (especially with friends) can be enjoyable (great weather, nice scenery, fresh air, a little exercise). _________________ Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84 |
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AG80
Joined: 04 Mar 2014 Posts: 39
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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grantmac017 wrote: | Greg,
The 320 is the same width as the Kona and 2kg lighter by spec. Less nose rocker and obviously no step tail but the mast track takes care of the waterline length.
The bottom is nearly flat and rails are round. Not ideal for efficient planing but I've done a mile at 18 kts so it's quick enough.
I doubt the board holds me back at our races (dropping sails is a slow way to race).
Never going to plane up as soon as something 30% wider and 60% of the weight. Just look at our jetty races on nights when the FW guys can plane up wind and they walk away from the longboards. |
I sail the Phantom 320 in my typical 5-15 mph in-land lake conditions. It is heavy and a bit technical to sail, but fun when railed up and heading up wind. It does take about the same amount of wind to plane as my 115 l "freemove" board, but I prefer the Phantom when the wind is inconsistent. The kona and the phantom weigh about the same. The Phantom works better when railed and headed upwind than the Kona. The Kona is less technical to sail and feels faster on a reach. It would be easier to teach on the Kona.
I bit the bullet this year and upgraded to the Kona CarbOne. I have only been able to sail it a couple of times, but it is definitely earlier to plane and faster than both the Phantom and regular Kona, and is easy to sail. Does not rail up in light winds as well as the Phantom. The Phantom may still be my choice in 5-10 mph winds. Nice to have options. |
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grantmac017
Joined: 04 Aug 2016 Posts: 946
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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gregnw44 wrote: |
I don't believe "the specs" that brands list... and regarding board weight, they always lie. I'll bring a calibrated scale up this summer and we'll weigh boards side by side. Maybe the 320 is lighter than I thought... it'll be easy to see.
And I sail longboards, shortboards and sometimes my FW (which can be fast in certain conditions). However, in most our local club racing... the raceboards run away from the formula boards. Only when it's windy, are formula boards fast. But then, raceboards are also fast in wind. There are many variables, but in our local club races... with us average recreational sailors... the formula boards don't run away from me (all else being equal). |
It certainly FEELS lighter but that can be deceiving.
I think that the courses we race are too short for FW unless you have fast tacks nailed and come out of them pumping hard. But that doesn't make the FW slower or not plane sooner. One night I sailed at the Jetty there were some good drag races where FW (I think Darius) smoked past the LBs in marginal planing conditions.
My average speeds over a session are almost always faster on LB compared to a SB but I think that's related to how I sail it rather than what I sail.
I'm also not rigging bigger than a 9.5 unlike you dedicated light wind racers. It's about as big as I can reliably handle and dropped sails are slow. |
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TheAdmiral
Joined: 27 Dec 2009 Posts: 43
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of good info in this post and I thought I might add my opinion. Intermediate sailor, 160 lbs. Live in florida so light wind venue. Bic 293,center board hole closed off,24 lbs, 293 long. Planes early but won't release to higher speed due to it's size without good wind. Starboard F155 which planes early (85 wide 270 long) and requires a lot of fin and shallow venue (weed fin) can be an issue and not the best gyber. Thought an Isonic 145 (88 wide 224 long) is short, needs pleanty of sail and likes to be pumped up on plane. Will be selling this board as it requires a lot of sailor imput and foot control. Have a Fanatic Shark130,great board but a little boring. Recently bought a Rocket wide 128 (carbon) and this board is both early to plane and quite fast, floats over chop. I believe 80 wide (+ or -) works and a lighter board that jumps when you enter the rear strap is important. I have a 115 Rocket that planes ok but both Tabou are kind of fragile. Friends I sail with think At 70 wide is tooo wide so preference is everything. Sailed a Exocet 138 planes early and fast. |
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gvogelsang
Joined: 09 Nov 1988 Posts: 435
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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AG80 wrote: | grantmac017 wrote: | Greg,
The 320 is the same width as the Kona and 2kg lighter by spec. Less nose rocker and obviously no step tail but the mast track takes care of the waterline length.
The bottom is nearly flat and rails are round. Not ideal for efficient planing but I've done a mile at 18 kts so it's quick enough.
I doubt the board holds me back at our races (dropping sails is a slow way to race).
Never going to plane up as soon as something 30% wider and 60% of the weight. Just look at our jetty races on nights when the FW guys can plane up wind and they walk away from the longboards. |
I sail the Phantom 320 in my typical 5-15 mph in-land lake conditions. It is heavy and a bit technical to sail, but fun when railed up and heading up wind. It does take about the same amount of wind to plane as my 115 l "freemove" board, but I prefer the Phantom when the wind is inconsistent. The kona and the phantom weigh about the same. The Phantom works better when railed and headed upwind than the Kona. The Kona is less technical to sail and feels faster on a reach. It would be easier to teach on the Kona.
I bit the bullet this year and upgraded to the Kona CarbOne. I have only been able to sail it a couple of times, but it is definitely earlier to plane and faster than both the Phantom and regular Kona, and is easy to sail. Does not rail up in light winds as well as the Phantom. The Phantom may still be my choice in 5-10 mph winds. Nice to have options. |
Please keep us up to date with your Carbone experiences. My read is that it is a fine all around board - great board to ride until you are on a 120 freeride or smaller. |
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gvogelsang
Joined: 09 Nov 1988 Posts: 435
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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TheAdmiral wrote: | Lots of good info in this post and I thought I might add my opinion. Intermediate sailor, 160 lbs. Live in florida so light wind venue. Bic 293,center board hole closed off,24 lbs, 293 long. Planes early but won't release to higher speed due to it's size without good wind. Starboard F155 which planes early (85 wide 270 long) and requires a lot of fin and shallow venue (weed fin) can be an issue and not the best gyber. Thought an Isonic 145 (88 wide 224 long) is short, needs pleanty of sail and likes to be pumped up on plane. Will be selling this board as it requires a lot of sailor imput and foot control. Have a Fanatic Shark130,great board but a little boring. Recently bought a Rocket wide 128 (carbon) and this board is both early to plane and quite fast, floats over chop. I believe 80 wide (+ or -) works and a lighter board that jumps when you enter the rear strap is important. I have a 115 Rocket that planes ok but both Tabou are kind of fragile. Friends I sail with think At 70 wide is tooo wide so preference is everything. Sailed a Exocet 138 planes early and fast. |
I believe that if I were 160 lbs, the Rocket Wide 128 would be the largest "marginal wind planing" board that I would own. I might have a long board for going upwind, downwind, and seeing a lot of the coast. But Rocket Wide 128 would be my - "this is my marginal wind planing board with a 8.0."
At my weight, the old Formula 270 x 84 is a great marginal wind board for an old geaser - easy to tack, and planes up pretty early with an 8.0 or 8.5. If i were lighter, I would go to a Rocket Wide 135 or equivalent Speedster. |
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gregnw44
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 783 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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TheAdmiral wrote: | Lots of good info in this post and I thought I might add my opinion. Intermediate sailor, 160 lbs. Live in florida so light wind venue. Bic 293,center board hole closed off,24 lbs, 293 long. Planes early but won't release to higher speed due to it's size without good wind. Starboard F155 which planes early (85 wide 270 long) and requires a lot of fin and shallow venue (weed fin) can be an issue and not the best gyber. Thought an Isonic 145 (88 wide 224 long) is short, needs pleanty of sail and likes to be pumped up on plane. Will be selling this board as it requires a lot of sailor imput and foot control. Have a Fanatic Shark130,great board but a little boring. Recently bought a Rocket wide 128 (carbon) and this board is both early to plane and quite fast, floats over chop. I believe 80 wide (+ or -) works and a lighter board that jumps when you enter the rear strap is important. I have a 115 Rocket that planes ok but both Tabou are kind of fragile. Friends I sail with think At 70 wide is tooo wide so preference is everything. Sailed a Exocet 138 planes early and fast. |
Thanks Admiral, good info!!
Except like I keep saying... please say what typical wind speeds, you sail in
Because just saying "I sail a light wind venue" doesn't really explain very much.
It's good you put your weight... but I can tell you, if you sailed where I live... the only board in your quiver that would get much TOW is your Bic 293 (and you would be using your centerboard).
From what I know... in general... Florida has way more wind than where I windsurf. So I wouldn't call it a light wind place at all. Typical wind range number's... please!!
Thanks _________________ Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84 |
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DanWeiss
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 2296 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="gvogelsangSNIP
Please keep us up to date with your Carbone experiences. My read is that it is a fine all around board - great board to ride until you are on a 120 freeride or smaller.[/quote]
The CarbOne is faster more often than not compared to the Kona One for several reasons.
The K1 uses a Tuttle box which will support a more powerful fin. A racing fin of about 48cm is a decent compromise for a wide range of conditions. A 52cm race fin works well for light wind or heavyweights. The Kona One's standard fin is 46cm but a swept model. It would also tend to flex and twist a lot due to its standard construction so it is a tad thicker for stiffness. That helps it work in light winds as well, but it generates a lot more drag than a pure racing fin.
The CarbOne use a carbon fiber construction, meaning one of the manufacturer's high performance carbon layups. It's layup schedule is unique and not shared with the KonaOne. Therefore, the CarbOne holds its shape better when planing, meaning it flexes longitudinally less than the Kona One, and presents a more consistent angle of attack to the water. The CarbOne should hold its rocker line better over the years.
The CarbOne's centerboard is a huge leap in performance from the Kona One. It's a more accurate foil in the first place, much larger and made of carbon fiber rather than fiberglass.
The CarbOne also employs a pedal operated mast track. The Kona One's is fixed while sailing. The benefit isn't massive but you can eek out more from different sails using the CarbOne's mast track.
Also, like all light versions of existing shapes, the board is easier to control in many ways because it transfers less inertia to the sailor than a heavier board. The CarbOne accelerates and decelerates more quickly. It is easier to turn in most conditions.
Planing on the CarbOne using a cammed racing sail and carbon boom feels similar to sailing any high-performance carbon short board. The thing just sails along, ping-ping-ping, while the Kona One tends to feel noticeably less crisp.
In short, the range of the CarbOne is toward the skilled sailor who wants a very high performance board to sail in fun races. It won't defeat an identically skilled racer using a Raceboard, but will offer an easier approach to that level. _________________ Support Your Sport. Join US Windsurfing!
www.USWindsurfing.org |
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