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Tri/Quad conversion of my old Goya, let the fun begin!
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5467
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

manuel wrote:
U2U2U2 wrote:
READ BETWEEN YOUR LINES IN CAPS:::
again IMO dont do the quad.


I like to look at it like a set of front side fins with the option of having a single rear fin or twins!
JP and Tabou have done it, it seems like the Tabou can be ridden as a Tri without issues while the JP is preferred as a Quad from my light research

A QUAD WINDSURF BOARD IS BASICALLY A TWIN WITH ADDITIONAL STABILIZERS FORWARD. WHEN TWINS CAME OUT THEY FIXED SOME OF THE ISSUES WITH THE 2 FORWARD FINS. THE DEBATE OF TWIN TRI QUAD I THINK IS NOT THE DISCUSSION HERE, BUT SEEMS TO BE GOING THAT WAY.

U2U2U2 wrote:

Symmetrical surf fins ? is too general, yes they work as twins or sides if the proper shape and size.


Surf fins up to the task?
I meant can they support the greater side load and perform, meaning have progressive feel and be powerful. The larger the more important this is. OK, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SURF FINS ?
U2U2U2 wrote:

I thne use pour foam 8lb to fill the entire cavity, re router the hole


Build question
Is it for a better epoxy bond or fear of melting existing foam?
What makes the pour foam bond stronger than drilling some channels into the board to provide a greater support for the epoxy to grab?

COUPLE THINGS, ITS VERY LIGHT WEIGHT, WATERPROOF, AND WILL BOND TO THE INSIDE OF YOUR BOARD, THEN THE EPOXY/CLOTH/CARBON/KEVLAR WILL ALL BOND TO IT. WHEN USING EPOXY SLOW HARDER IS IMPERATIVE, AND EVN THEN TOO MUCH WILL MELT THE PVC INNER CORE.

U2U2U2 wrote:

Its important to reflect the placement of the center fin on the boards in your example, how far from the tail. The tail width also affects placement
the 30cm point is the normal measure of tail width.


The fin screw is outlined in my drawings, the intent was to compare different designs to see what made the most sense given the board's shape and knowing the other boards characterics. YES I UNDERSTOOD THAT, YOUR CASE AS WELL THE FORWARD FINS SHOULD COME ATOR CLOSE TO THE LEADING EDGE OF THE POWERBOX

Fin placement
On the drawings, the manufacturers setups are placed in relation to rear footstrap and how far from the rails they are (not the tail), is it a mistake? I certainly would prefer the fins to be under my foot and not so far back like with the Pocket. The Pyramid has them really far forward but the tail is much thinner and the rear footstrap way back.

My current fin box is in light grey on all the pictures.

Setup idea
Since pretty much all setups seem to have the side fins lined up with the rear strap front screw, this is what I'm thinking about doing.

Then with the power box a touch farther back, it'd give me a board with more drive. MY EXPERIENCE IS FORWARD 1--1.5CM OF CENTER.

If I want a looser board, I could switch to the Quad config with the fins brought in more under foot such as the Starboard Quad 2015.

Spread
So does it make sense to line up the front fins to the rear strap front screw and the rear fins with the rear screw. What would be a good spread? The Tabou has less spread on the front fins but more on the back. My tail is quite wide and one of the requirements is to make it looser, meaning turnier with less force. GENERAL AGAIN THE CLOSER THE FIN CLUSTER IS TOGETHER THE LOOSER IT WILL BE, THE FURTHER UP THE BOARD THE CLUSTER IS THE LOOSER THE BOARD,FURTHER APART , TURNS MORE DRAWN OUT..STIFFER,, MORE TOE LOOSER, YOU CAN COMBINE THESE AND BALANCE DRIVE WITH LOOSE. IF I DID A QUAD: REARS HALF THE DISTANCE FROM POWERBOX CENTERLINE TO RAIL CENTERLINES ON BOTH. FROM TAIL 15--18CM TO TRAILING EDGE OF REAR BOX. FORWARD FINS ON QUAD:: 1 CM LEADING EDGE TO TRAILING EDGE ON FORE AFT FINS, 4--5CM FROM THE RAIL TO TRAILING EDGE, SILL ON FORWARD. I LAY OUT SEVERAL POSSIBLE SETUPS, AND PICK THE ONE THAT LOOKS BEST, SOME WILL BE FORWARD AND CLOSER TOGETHER, VS OTHER OPTIONS.

EDIT: Is there anyway I can set the front boxes to test both assyms + 2.0 toe + twist and syms + ~0 toe?


ONCE THE BOX IS SET, ON ANY THAT I USE, YOU ARE DONE. SOME FINS HAVE TOE BUILT IN, BUT THE ONES I HAVE ARE .5 ... RX K4 EZZYs 1.2 3 TOE IN DEGREE, BUT TO DATE NONE THAT WOULD FIT, BUT FAIRLY EASY TO ADAPT TO THE PROBOX. IMO I WOULD DO LIKE 1.75 DEGREE OF TOE AND USE ASY OR SYMMETRICAL FINS

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5467
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last 2 projects I did have trailing tri fin, current is a quad, w/slotbox rears and ProBox fronts.

the trailer is interesting, in that you can vary the size forward or rear to suit your particular taste.

the forward fins are inboard , but not so much as a twin. I like this set up.





I like K4s

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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fins can be shaved to adjust for angle right?
More later, time to go on the water.

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5467
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

manuel wrote:
Fins can be shaved to adjust for angle right?
More later, time to go on the water.


yes and epoxied , back to fit, how to judge the angle might prove to be difficult.

try measuring 1mm

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5467
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exocet Original Wave, 105L , all slot boxes, fin position fairly straightforward, advise from MOO Custom UK. This worked exceptional, some drag, but very nice quad.



RRD Wave twin, additional boxes for quad, this was a great set up.



tried lots of fins, these are TFC with FCS fronts in ProBox

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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:

A QUAD WINDSURF BOARD IS BASICALLY A TWIN WITH ADDITIONAL STABILIZERS FORWARD. WHEN TWINS CAME OUT THEY FIXED SOME OF THE ISSUES WITH THE 2 FORWARD FINS. THE DEBATE OF TWIN TRI QUAD I THINK IS NOT THE DISCUSSION HERE, BUT SEEMS TO BE GOING THAT WAY.


I agree, I was wondering why you were advising against a Quad, because of the alignment challenge?

U2U2U2 wrote:

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SURF FINS ?


Fins designed for surf boards and not windsurfing.
I weigh an impressive 70kgs,
I am known for doing the most radical maneuvers!



Well jokes aside, the fins need to cope with repetitive jump landing impact.

U2U2U2 wrote:

THE FORWARD FINS SHOULD COME ATOR CLOSE TO THE LEADING EDGE OF THE POWERBOX


Seems true of most setups pictured.

U2U2U2 wrote:

I LAY OUT SEVERAL POSSIBLE SETUPS, AND PICK THE ONE THAT LOOKS BEST, SOME WILL BE FORWARD AND CLOSER TOGETHER, VS OTHER OPTIONS.


Will have a drawing on what I plan on doing as I find out more.
Do you have any?


U2U2U2 wrote:

IMO I WOULD DO LIKE 1.75 DEGREE OF TOE AND USE ASY OR SYMMETRICAL FINS


Manufacturers don't have as much toe with symm fins.
On assyms I get it, but on symms... never mentioned anything about twist?

U2U2U2 wrote:
manuel wrote:
Fins can be shaved to adjust for angle right?
More later, time to go on the water.


yes and epoxied , back to fit, how to judge the angle might prove to be difficult.

try measuring 1mm


Straight edge, similar to doing a car wheel alignment, right?

Today was quite windy 18-29knots. I have been backing up the mast track and it's helped immensely with the turning ability of the board. It does have a back foot bias with all of the volume drawn back but then has a more forgiving rear part of the rail.

The jumps were astonishing, I'm still learning body placement when on a wave, it has a tendency to surge down the wave before I can get a rail down then I'm leaning back trying to catch it! I'm hoping multi-fins will help catch technique issues and make me a better sailor overnight Wink !

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
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Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quad or not, my impression of this board a is a tri fin, not QUAD, its not a wave board to start The addition of the quad/rear boxes would offer a twin and quad sailing option.
The additional weigh would not be great, but certainly more with 4 boxes.

You can certainly make a quad if you desire those traits over a 2+1 tri fin.

SURF Fins: True Ames make both Windsurf and Surf fins, the surf fins dont come in G10, AFAIK. For fins this size I have found no difficulty with strength, see see K4, which are a composite ..plastic is unkind but very hi tech plastic.

You can see toe in for some companies on the K4site. From the designer of Simmer boards, for symmetrical fin, 1.3--1.5 degree of toe

TWIST: The only windsurf fin that I know that have any are Witchcraft, they will come in only mini tuttle, the set of RTMs that I have from them I use all the time on my Chakra. I tries a set of surf ins that have extreme twist, straight line, horrible, turns great. My frien who is a NASA scientist did a pair of fiberglass ProBox for me, they are sym, and I really didnt notice much, asy may be better.

a drawing, there is no definitive placement of the cluster, the arrangements vary, but not by a lot, the individual company's have tested different positions and utilize what works BEST for that hull, hulls of course will be different.

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U2U2U2



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Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this for surf boards has lots of good info, not written in stone

http://proboxhawaii.com/pages/technical/technical_primer.html

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5467
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a lot of confidence in the ProBox strength, for fronts for a tri or quad really good. For larger fins , or the option to use them for quad rears I may use USBox, and probably reduce length some, much larger variety of twin fins that would work there. My larger ProBox fins are all hand made in G10.

TEST: The board is just a nose, the box was installed with just epoxy, no glass/carbon, the box was not sanded flush with the board, the fin.. a squareish piece of fiberglass had no slots for the fins to grip.

started with a hammer, difficult to swing from high to hit the 'fin' but had no effect, using the weight then and repeated hits did dislodge the entire box, I hit both side and fore aft. The board itself was a POS, but what I had to test with. I have removed the boxes after being installed correctly, and they are not easily removed, using a route with small cutter I went down the center of the box, the cut then allowed me to pry it out.




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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:
Quad or not, my impression of this board a is a tri fin, not QUAD,


Please develop. Manufacturesr have developed many types of Quads out there from radical wave to all-around turn a mushy session into a fun one!

U2U2U2 wrote:

its not a wave board to start


This is Tony Garcia, former pro with the board:





Yes it's jumping but definitely in a wave environment...
Note that he is using the massive 25cm freewave fin and that this is the 85L.

U2U2U2 wrote:
The addition of the quad/rear boxes would offer a twin and quad sailing option.


Exactly, the board rear rocker being so flat and wide, I think it'd respond quite well to the Twin or Quad option. As a Quad it should gain speed on a wave, make it better in smaller onshore wave. As a Twin would make it snappy to catch those late arrivals. And as a Tri would be preferred for more side bigger waves for extra grip depending on how bad the Quad config is!

U2U2U2 wrote:
The additional weigh would not be great, but certainly more with 4 boxes.


The board is 6.1kgs with straps, recent boards are often around 7kgs or more. Even if I had 500g it might actually balance the board even better!

U2U2U2 wrote:
SURF Fins: True Ames make both Windsurf and Surf fins, the surf fins dont come in G10, AFAIK. For fins this size I have found no difficulty with strength, see see K4, which are a composite ..plastic is unkind but very hi tech plastic.


I guess well reinforced ProBox boxes with K4 would be the ticket. Even in the back. Or anything that can be adapted to fit the boxes. I'm less worried about the box than the fin itself. What worries me the most about surfing fins is their response at planing speed, jumps & landings, probably also their support at the bottom turn. Also, it seems that matching fin caracterics is important in a multi-fin setup, much like running the same tires all around on a car.

U2U2U2 wrote:
this for surf boards has lots of good info, not written in stone

http://proboxhawaii.com/pages/technical/technical_primer.html


Thanks for the info on twist & setups. Makes more sense now.

So now I need to figure out whether I do all four proboxes. Wouldn't go taller than 15cm anyway. Custom slot boxes, shortened US boxes or a mix of probox up front and slot/us at the rear.

And finally, 2x9cm, 2x10cm or 2x11cm up front, 2x14cm or 2x15cm out back. As for the power box, I could run a 17cm.

Yesterday being lighter I really didn't have issues with my 19cm as a single with the 5.0. With the 5.4, I need to be lighter on my rear foot for sure.

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