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rangerider



Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Lion 7.5 and a 9.5 and have used them a lot the last 3 seasons. They do feel heavy and I think it is because they are really stable when powered. I think they are hard to gybe but they are really easy to sail fast because the power delivery is so smooth - I sailed a camless sail yesterday which felt a lot lighter but it was also a huge workout to control in the monster gusts we were dealing with. I am happy with the 9.5 lion but I wonder if I would prefer the Cheetah for 7.5. They are great sails but I think they are characterized by feeling soft and stable rather than lively which can be nice in gusts.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Cams Reply with quote

Thurston wrote:
... otherwise it only took a few more minute to rig.

To many of us, "a few more minutes" feels like a lifetime when it's windy. Some people need only a few minutes for their entire rigging process. Many of us also don't like the less maneuverable feel of cams. Many of us got a bad taste for cams back when so many cammed sails were bears to rig and waterstart. Then there's the difference between giant sails (anything over 7.5 for me, over 5.0 for many people) and smaller sails.

Like everything else in this sport, virtually every choice involves tradeoffs.

Mike \m/
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Cams Reply with quote

Thurston wrote:

To many of us, "a few more minutes" feels like a lifetime when it's windy. Some people need only a few minutes for their entire rigging process. Many of us also don't like the less maneuverable feel of cams. Many of us got a bad taste for cams back when so many cammed sails were bears to rig and waterstart.

Not even sure that rigging cams takes "few more minutes" more. I have Hot Sails Maui GPS and GP2 and rigging is really not an issue. The cams actually help threading in the mast.

One could argue that modern cams have better rotation than a ... rotational (RAF) ... but the main advantage for me is range. I am a light guy (160 pounds) and my 6.6 GP2 takes me out when other people are on a 4.7: very easy and controlled sailing once you are on asset.

Water start can be an issue, depending on brand and size of the sleeve: my 2010 GPS are tricky if dropped in the water, my 2012 less so. My GP2, a twin cam, has no problem at all and waterstarts like a RAF.


Last edited by dvCali on Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 686

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me if your skills have advanced to the level where you rarely drop the sail in the water a cammed sail could really be of benefit during low wind, gusty wind, sailing upwind etc... but for people like me who blow the majority of our jibes, it's a recipe for exhaustion.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14003

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything I read from racers here tells me today's camless sails obviate the need for cams for just about anything less than racing to upwind marks for serious money, at least in sails under maybe 8 meters. I'm comfortable blasting and maneuvering in every direction on my camless 6.2 when I (and far better and much bigger sailors) are powered up on their 5.0s, sometimes 4.7s. Years of posts from our resident racerhedz here lead me to believe cams are purely a personal choice, often simply a habit, for recreational sailing or even "local" racing under 8m. Yes, cams are becoming less obtrusive, but ... still ... why spend the money, weight, time, and hassle on them for what the vast majority of us do, when a Retro, 511, or other such camless wonders are simpler, lighter, and at least as effective?
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
... lead me to believe cams are purely a personal choice, often simply a habit, for recreational sailing or even "local" racing under 8m. Yes, cams are becoming less obtrusive, but ... still ... why spend the money, weight, time, and hassle on them for what the vast majority of us do, when a Retro, 511, or other such camless wonders are simpler, lighter, and at least as effective?


Yep, it is personal taste, but if you compare with a free-race two/three cams the cost is about the same (5-10% more), weight is irrelevant (a modern cam weights about 50-60 grams), and time and hassle might actually go in favor of a cam sail.

Performance wise is not so much a matter of speed (who cares much, unless you are racing or doing serious speed work ... and then you must use cams). The main advantage is stability. There is a big difference in stability between a RAF and a 2/3 CAM. Push your envelope, add some chop and the cam foil starts to shine. The advantage is very clear even in recreational sailing, at least in my experience.

Rules like "below 8.0 do not use cams" are too general to have much significance. Depending on your weight and local conditions "below 6.0" might be more appropriate ... or not ... it all depends.
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 409

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It probably depends where your sail. My winds are gusty, water is choppy: my next large sail will be cammed. I recently tried an RS:X 8.5 and the increase is stability vs a normal sail is huge. To the point that it must be boring in good conditions!

It's not too bad at all for jibing too. I managed my first planing jibe at the end of last year with a freeride sail. I nailed my second jibe on my first outing this year with the cammed sail that I had used for maybe 15 minutes.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to me, water starting a cam sail depends on the luff sleeve. I find it easier to water start a 2 cam sail with a narrow mast sleeve than an raf. I just pop the cams up with my hand, and the water drains off the sail. Wide luff sleeve racing sails are a completely different story.
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wondering why you would want to be on a 6.6 if you can get going on a 4.7. Everyone talks about the wind range of cams or race sails. Wind range consist of low wind power as well as high wind control. To each their own. As for me, I want to be on the smallest sail I can that will get me going. Every thing is so much easier on that 4.7 compared to a 6.6
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KevinDo



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 408
Location: Cabrillo Inside

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOVAAN wrote:
I'm wondering why you would want to be on a 6.6 if you can get going on a 4.7. Everyone talks about the wind range of cams or race sails. Wind range consist of low wind power as well as high wind control. To each their own. As for me, I want to be on the smallest sail I can that will get me going. Every thing is so much easier on that 4.7 compared to a 6.6


Maybe for deep downwind speed runs? As they say, if you are overpowered on a beam reach, than you'll be just powered up on a deep broad reach!
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